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FORUMS > The Sin Bin > Prevent The Church Hijacking Our Schools |
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| Quote: Rock God X "WTF is CofE on paper? Do you believe in God? If you don't, whatever it says 'on paper', you're an atheist. If you do, then you need to have a look at the evidence a little closer.
It means although I have been Christened as a child I don't believe. Simple.
This is part of the problem. When people are asked to put down their religion on any sort of official form/survey/census, they often put the religion they were brought up in, or put 'Christian' because they're British and we are a 'Christian country'. If everyone who thought it was nonsense put 'atheist', the true picture would become a lot clearer.
What in your opinion would this picture show?
I don't applaud this attitude one little bit. I'm not picking on you personally, as loads of people have said it, but I can't stand the hypocrisy of it. It's like people who get married in church despite never attending any other time. It's rubbish.
I can take being a hypocrite if it's for the good of my children. For the record & just in case your wondering, I didn't get married in a church.
Thankfully, the non-faith school in my village is better than the faith school, but if it wasn't, I would have worked harder alongside the teachers to ensure that my son knew everything he needed to know before starting secondary school.
That's fine. I chose the best school available for my children to attend.
I would have told him that we evolved from a common ancestor with [iapes[/i (not monkeys), and that, whilst some people don't believe that to be the case, the evidence does not support their position. In simpler terms, obviously.
I told him both theories, I used the word monkey rather than ape as we were watching a programme about the Amazon rain forest and he liked the Tamarins.
I also told him which theory I believe & that it was his choice, not mine or his teachers which he believed. I also told him that in time he may change his mind & that was also fine.
As someone has already pointed out, it's always a cause for concern when children believe something that is so demonstrably incorrect. It's never too early to teach your child that reason and evidence will always trump blind faith.'"
As someone has already pointed out, it's always a cause for concern when children believe something that is so demonstrably incorrect. It's never too early to teach your child that reason and evidence will always trump blind faith.'" ]
]Should I be concerned that he thinks his Grandma is in heaven? Should I tell him there is no such thing? Am I wrong to allow him some comfort in the thought that she will be looked after by angels? Maybe I am, but I certainly won't be the only one on here. As I said earlier, if it means doing what i feel is the best by my children I can live with being a hypocrite.
Edit. Bloody phone!
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| Quote: Rock God X "They have every reason to be defensive, given the disproportionate degree of influence religion already has in the running of our country. This influence will only increase if the proposed changes are adopted.'"
Religion has no influence in the running of this country. Purlease! Any such influence died decades ago. As for secularists (and I assume from your agreement with their position you are one yourself), defensive behaviour is usually displayed as a consequence of feeling threatened. Why do secularists feel threatened by religious belief?
Quote: Rock God X "As has already been pointed out (I would have thought it was pretty obvious anyway), any school that is able to select which pupils it takes will obtain better results than those without such a privilege. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that there's not a single shred of evidence to support the view that the improved exam results in faith schools are as a consequence of the religious flavour of the education rather than the selection policy.'"
This paragraph is very confused. On the one hand you are against selection on a faith basis (while ignoring the fact that not all faith schools select on a faith basis) and yet you state a belief that selection on a faith basis does not improve academic achievement. So what is your problem then?
However, the fact still remains that faith based schools (and again, I can only speak of the Christian faith) generally enable their children to achieve to a higher standard than non-faith based schools (although obviously there are outstanding non-faith based schools also and plenty of them).
Quote: Rock God X "Academies have a great deal of freedom in the curricula they teach. I linked to a lecture given by the head of 'science' at one of these academies earlier in the thread, and what he was teaching was anything other than scientific. '"
All schools have a great deal of freedom in the curricula they teach. Far more freedom than many would have you believe. The National Curriculum was never intended as a proscriptive document. It was a guide and a guide only. That schools often teach it to the letter is a reflection of many things. However, all a school needs to do is convince OFSTED that the curriculum they choose to use meets the standard and legal requirements set down for the National Curriculum and they are free to teach to that curriculum. As for academies, it was my understanding that they will operate to the same policy but it is their ethos and source of control (ie outside of the Local Authority) which are the essential differences. However, I will check on that.
Quote: Rock God X "But that discrimination shouldn't be based on who attends what church, or who is likely to bump that school's exam results up.'"
As I said earlier, all schools have to discriminate. The last government brought in the lottery system. Do you agree with that as a means of discrimination? It seems idiotic to me.
Quote: Rock God X "Why should a person need a reference from a clergyman in order to show that they can teach children effectively? Or to disclose their faith (or lack thereof)? Their ability to do the job should be the [ionly[/i factor in the selection process.'"
They don't require a reference from a clergyman to show that they can teach children effectively. A clergy reference has nothing to do with their teaching ability but only as confirmation of the faith disclosures in their application statement, just as a reference from a previous employer is - in part at least - confirmation that you actually worked there in the capacity you claim. Not all faith schools request references from clergy, not by a long chalk, as I said earlier. The ones I applied to didn't. They just requested sympathy with the ethos of the school which, as I also said earlier, is a prerequisite of any school, faith-based or not.
Incidentally, did you know that it is a parent's legal entitlement to withdraw their child from any religious education at school and that it is a legal right for a teacher to withdraw from teaching religious education? I exercised that right once when on teaching practice in a Catholic school. They had a half hour instruction session each morning and because I am not a Catholic of any description I did not consider myself fit to teach their version of the Christian faith and so I invoked my legal right to withdraw.
Quote: Rock God X " In a time where the overwhelming majority of the British public do not attend church regularly, this is intolerable.'"
Interesting. I need to find a reference to it but at the last poll taken of people's faith orientation, I think about five years ago, approximately 70% claimed to be Christian. Polls are polls but they give an indication if not a definitive description.
Quote: Rock God X "It's not about monsters, you dimwit. '"
www.humanism.org.uk/news/view/961
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| Quote: SaintsFan "Religion has no influence in the running of this country. Purlease! Any such influence died decades ago.'"
So why do the bishops cling on to their seats in the House of Lords and will continue to do so?
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BRING BACK THE CRAB.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_46379.jpg |
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| Quote: Rock God X "WTF is CofE on paper? Do you believe in God? If you don't, whatever it says 'on paper', you're an atheist. If you do, then you need to have a look at the evidence a little closer.
I]t means although I have been Christened as a child I don't believe. Simple.
This is part of the problem. When people are asked to put down their religion on any sort of official form/survey/census, they often put the religion they were brought up in, or put 'Christian' because they're British and we are a 'Christian country'. If everyone who thought it was nonsense put 'atheist', the true picture would become a lot clearer.
What would this true picture show.
I don't applaud this attitude one little bit. I'm not picking on you personally, as loads of people have said it, but I can't stand the hypocrisy of it. It's like people who get married in church despite never attending any other time. It's rubbish.
I can take being a hypocrite if it's for the good of my children. For the record & just in case your wondering, I didn't get married in a church.
Thankfully, the non-faith school in my village is better than the faith school, but if it wasn't, I would have worked harder alongside the teachers to ensure that my son knew everything he needed to know before starting secondary school.
That's fine. I chose the best school available for my children to attend.
I would have told him that we evolved from a common ancestor with [iapes[/i (not monkeys), and that, whilst some people don't believe that to be the case, the evidence does not support their position. In simpler terms, obviously.
I told him both theories, I used the word monkey rather than ape as we were watching a programme about the Amazon rain forest and he liked the Tamarins.
I also told him which theory I believe & that it was his choice, not mine or his teachers which he believed. I also told him that in time he may change his mind & that was also fine.
As someone has already pointed out, it's always a cause for concern when children believe something that is so demonstrably incorrect. It's never too early to teach your child that reason and evidence will always trump blind faith.'"
Should I be concerned that he thinks his Grandma is in heaven? Should I tell him there is no such thing? Am I wrong to allow him some comfort in the thought that she will be looked after by angels? Maybe I am, but I certainly won't be the only one on here. As I said earlier, if it means doing what i feel is the best by my children I can live with being a hypocrite.
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| Quote: Big Graeme "Common sense
I find it quite amusing that humanists are running so scared of creationism. Reading the arguments from creationists and humanists is like reading of two equally scared sub-communities acting in the same way but with differing tenets of faith.
I'd like one of those scientists to teach evolution to a group of Year 1 children. See how far they get with that! Especially when they then try to teach about apes. That could be an interesting unit to observe!
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2051.jpg The older I get, the better I was
Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy
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kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."
cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"
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"No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan:2051.jpg |
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| Quote: SaintsFan "
As I said earlier, all schools have to discriminate. The last government brought in the lottery system. Do you agree with that as a means of discrimination? It seems idiotic to me.
'"
They did?
Care to point to any credible reference that backs that assertion up?
Also, how the hell can a lottery system be discriminatory? The mere fact that the pupil roll is recruited on an anonymous basis would suggest otherwise.
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| Quote: SaintsFan "I find it quite amusing that humanists are running so scared of creationism.'"
Scared? No more like pointing and laughing
You are free to believe in your sky pixie all you want, just don't brainwash kids using taxpayers money.
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| Quote: Mintball "That approach has been spreading. You can equally see it in the rise of small, evangelical churches in the UK – there’s an African and Caribbean influence there too.'"
You've got it all back assward if you think that evangelicalism is new! How do you think African and Caribbean churches formed their beliefs in the first place? Did they spirit them out of the air? Or do they exist as a consequence of the British missionaries who went out to African and Caribbean countries in the wake of the empire?
I suggest you need to read up on your history. Evangelical Christianity has been around for a long time. It took hold once the Bible had been translated into English and could be printed at a price that people could afford. They no longer had to rely upon the interpretation of the priest or monk to follow the Christian life but instead could look to 'God's Word' or the Evangel, ie the Gospel (good news). Evangelicalism is simply a word to describe people who follow the teaching of the Bible, although it can be applied to anyone who follows a doctrine (set of beliefs). The scientists referred to in the article cited above could be equally described as evangelicals, just of another doctrine.
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2051.jpg The older I get, the better I was
Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."
cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan:2051.jpg |
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| Quote: SaintsFan "
I'd like one of those scientists to teach evolution to a group of Year 1 children. See how far they get with that! Especially when they then try to teach about apes. That could be an interesting unit to observe!'"
Why should there be a need to teach creationism or evolution to Year 1 students?
Why not let kids learn to read, write and "do sums" and other fun activities? There's plenty of time, once the become more cognisant to introduce the options. But for some unfathomable reason, the religious nutjobs want that indoctrination to begin as soon as possible.
[size WHY?[/size
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| Quote: cod'ead "They did? '"
Yes, they did. It was brought in primarily to eliminate extreme practises by parents who wanted their children to attend certain schools.
Quote: cod'ead "Also, how the hell can a lottery system be discriminatory? The mere fact that the pupil roll is recruited on an anonymous basis would suggest otherwise.'"
From [idictionary.com[/i for your edification Show IPA
noun
1.
an act or instance of discriminating.
2.
treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
3.
the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.
4.
Archaic . something that serves to differentiate.
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2051.jpg The older I get, the better I was
Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."
cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan:2051.jpg |
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| Quote: SaintsFan "Yes, they did. It was brought in primarily to eliminate extreme practises by parents who wanted their children to attend certain schools.
From [idictionary.com[/i for your edification Show IPA
noun
1.
an act or instance of discriminating.
2.
treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit
How on earth did you get a license to teach anyone, let alone vulnerable children?
I asked you for evidence of the "last government" introducing a lotter system for school allocations. All you managed to do was repeat what you had originally said. OK I'll do the job for you: Brighton & Hove Council briefly introduced a lottery system. Right, have we got that? One council, out of the many in the UK. One council, not a government.
I also asked how a lottery could ever be describes as discriminatory and all you managed to do was provide me with a dictionary definition of discrimination.
I would be seriously worried if any child of mine attended any school you were a part of.
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Quote: cod'ead "Why should there be a need to teach creationism or evolution to Year 1 students?'"
Did you read the article?
I did. In it the group of scientists proclaimed the intent to persuade the government to introduce evolution into the National Curriculum throughout the primary school. I was responding to that intention in my post.
For your information, science in Key Stage 1 and Key Stage 2 National Curriculum does not cover origins. Here are the subjects taught in Key Stage 2 (which builds on Key Stage 1):
Sc1 - Scientific Enquiry
Ideas and evidence in science
Investigative Skills
Sc2 - Life processes and living things
Life processes (includes processes common to humans and other animals: nutrition, movement, growth and reproduction)
Humans and other animals (expands on the above)
Green plants
Variation and classification
Living things in their environment
Sc3 - Materials and their properties
Grouping and classifying materials
Changing materials
Separating mixtures of materials
Sc4 - Physical processes
Electricity
Forces and motion
Light and sound
The earth and beyond
Taken directly from my copy of the National Curriculum, as published in 2009, which you may just find at www.nc.uk.net if you choose to look.
The scientists want to introduce evolution into that mix. I say I would like to see them try! It would make for an interesting observation.
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Quote: cod'ead "Why should there be a need to teach creationism or evolution to Year 1 students?'"
Did you read the article?
I did. In it the group of scientists proclaimed the intent to persuade the government to introduce evolution into the National Curriculum throughout the primary school. I was responding to that intention in my post.
For your information, science in Key Stage 1 and Key Stage 2 National Curriculum does not cover origins. Here are the subjects taught in Key Stage 2 (which builds on Key Stage 1):
Sc1 - Scientific Enquiry
Ideas and evidence in science
Investigative Skills
Sc2 - Life processes and living things
Life processes (includes processes common to humans and other animals: nutrition, movement, growth and reproduction)
Humans and other animals (expands on the above)
Green plants
Variation and classification
Living things in their environment
Sc3 - Materials and their properties
Grouping and classifying materials
Changing materials
Separating mixtures of materials
Sc4 - Physical processes
Electricity
Forces and motion
Light and sound
The earth and beyond
Taken directly from my copy of the National Curriculum, as published in 2009, which you may just find at www.nc.uk.net if you choose to look.
The scientists want to introduce evolution into that mix. I say I would like to see them try! It would make for an interesting observation.
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40218_1286737075.jpg Success is not final; failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. (Winston Churchill):d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_40218.jpg |
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| Quote: cod'ead "How on earth did you get a license to teach anyone, let alone vulnerable children? '"
Not only that but they graded me as good. Shocking, isn't it?
Quote: cod'ead "I would be seriously worried if any child of mine attended any school you were a part of.'"
You should be. I might teach them to discriminate between the contexts in which words are used and their various meanings in order that they can apply them appropriately. That would result in them being better educated than you.
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6505_1460484023.jpg [i:10za56ci]Hold on to me baby, his bony hands will do you no harm
It said in the cards, we lost our souls to the Nameless One[/i:10za56ci]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6505.jpg |
Moderator
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Quote: SaintsFan "Yes, they did. It was brought in primarily to eliminate extreme practises by parents who wanted their children to attend certain schools.'"
You might want to read this:
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/Sch ... DG_4016369
No lottery. Never has been.
The majority of state schools have no say whatsoever in which pupils are admitted.
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Quote: SaintsFan "Yes, they did. It was brought in primarily to eliminate extreme practises by parents who wanted their children to attend certain schools.'"
You might want to read this:
www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/Sch ... DG_4016369
No lottery. Never has been.
The majority of state schools have no say whatsoever in which pupils are admitted.
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RLFANS Match Centre
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1 | | PLD | F | A | DIFF | PTS |
Wigan |
28 |
759 |
336 |
423 |
46 |
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Hull KR |
28 |
729 |
335 |
394 |
44 |
Warrington |
29 |
769 |
351 |
418 |
42 |
Leigh |
29 |
580 |
442 |
138 |
33 |
Salford |
28 |
556 |
561 |
-5 |
32 |
St.Helens |
28 |
618 |
411 |
207 |
30 |
|
Catalans |
27 |
475 |
427 |
48 |
30 |
Leeds |
27 |
530 |
488 |
42 |
28 |
Huddersfield |
27 |
468 |
658 |
-190 |
20 |
Castleford |
27 |
425 |
735 |
-310 |
15 |
Hull FC |
27 |
328 |
894 |
-566 |
6 |
LondonB |
27 |
317 |
916 |
-599 |
6 |
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1 | | PLD | F | A | DIFF | PTS |
Wakefield |
26 |
1010 |
262 |
748 |
50 |
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Toulouse |
25 |
744 |
368 |
376 |
35 |
Bradford |
26 |
678 |
387 |
291 |
34 |
York |
28 |
682 |
479 |
203 |
32 |
Widnes |
27 |
561 |
502 |
59 |
29 |
Featherstone |
26 |
622 |
500 |
122 |
28 |
|
Sheffield |
26 |
626 |
526 |
100 |
28 |
Doncaster |
26 |
498 |
619 |
-121 |
25 |
Halifax |
26 |
509 |
650 |
-141 |
22 |
Batley |
26 |
422 |
591 |
-169 |
22 |
Barrow |
25 |
442 |
720 |
-278 |
19 |
Swinton |
27 |
474 |
670 |
-196 |
18 |
Whitehaven |
25 |
437 |
826 |
-389 |
18 |
Dewsbury |
27 |
348 |
879 |
-531 |
4 |
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