Poorer communities very rarely get what they ask for. Involvement in local decision making, less pollution, safer streets, decent jobs, good educational opportunities, good health care, good social services, modern sports facilities, good public transport, a public library, good child care are what people want & need. Virtually nothing to do with Europe or immigration.

This.

The NHS Trust I work for has had to make £3m in cuts over the past 3 years. This has affected services more than immigration - upon which we rely on for a large proportion of our staff.

Ok, let's have a look. Get a brew and a digestive.

I didn't say they weren't net contributors, but I don't consider a small (and arguable) net contribution in fiscal terms good enough argument to perpetuate the idiocy of freedom of movement between hugely unequal countries. It's not immigration that creates the problems per se, it's the rate of arrivals. I'm not anti-immigration, I'm anti-mass, uncontrolled immigration. Just how long do you think a rough average net migration of 230,000 for the last 15 years can continue?

And let me be clear - I don't attribute this all to EU immigration, indeed non-EU immigration is more costly to the UK, however it's a significant factor and one that we can begin to fix via Brexit.

In reality their actual contribution is highly debatable. Immigration is estimated to raise GDP by around 0.5% per year, however as it also increases population by roughly the same rate any benefit is minimal. Even the pro-EU House of Lords found that immigration offers little-to-no economic benefit to the UK, although of course the immigrants themselves benefit. They also noted this reflected similar studies in other countries. Taking a number of studies in the round the benefit to the exchequer certainly appears negligible.

The Lords also estimated that every 100 non-EU working-age migrants are initially associated with 23 fewer native British people employed. But that's another story.

The fact is, immigration is contributing to our population growing at its fastest rate since the Industrial Revolution. 55% of the population increase between 91-16 was due to the direct contribution of net migration. We're a small, densely populated country with a severe housing crisis. Whether you think that's a problem right at this moment is irrelevant - you need to look 10, 20, 50, 100 years into the future to get an idea of how dire the situation will become unless measures are taken, or a massive house-building programme is implemented immediately which would inevitably see further swathes of green-belt land disappear. Up to 90% of new households in the UK each year are headed by someone of overseas origin. In London it's 100%. As most immigrants tend to move to cities, their impact there is more significant, squeezing demand and driving up prices and - bearing in mind most migrants rent - driving up rental costs.

Of course, an aging population (the rate of which will only increase as immigrants since 2000 reach old age) is a key factor, but so is immigration. Furthermore, as migrants tend to have bigger families, births to migrants and to their children will be an enormous factor in exponential population growth in the future. The numbers just pile up over and over.

The NHS absolutely feels pressure due to immigration. There were 745,000 new migrant GP registrations in 2015/16 alone. Please don't try to tell me these numbers aren't squeezing waiting times and demand, because they are, especially in high migrant areas. On a related note, the cost of overseas visitors and immigrants to the NHS is around £2 billion pa - for this reason the immigration health surcharge was introduced for non-EEA and temporary migrants, soon to increase to £400. The NHS is of course partly at fault here: for years they have failed miserably to recover the costs of treating EEA citizens. EEA countries have claimed up to £650m for treating UK citizens, while the NHS claims often much less than £70m. And yes I appreciate austerity is a factor, so it makes little sense to continue to allow such high numbers of potential patients.

Yes, yes, we know a significant proportion of NHS staff are of overseas origin. No-one is talking of removing their right to work, or indeed restricting the ability of qualified medical workers moving here where no British worker is available, so spare me the argument.

Schools are also absolutely under pressure due to an increase in the birth rate since 2000 following a slight slowdown in the 90s. New immigrant arrivals and higher birth rates to higher-fertility previous immigrants are the main factor: 78% of the increase in birth rate is down to immigrant births. How can you project school places if you have no idea how many children might arrive or be born in your area? You can't. I have first-hand experience of British children being unable to get into their local schools while immigrant children are given places. Most primary schools are now facing a shortfall of places due to rising demand as immigrant children reach school-age. It's happening whether you like it or not.

In addition, I recently saw a school proudly boasting that 40+ languages were spoken in their classrooms - why on earth is this a good thing? All it means is precious time and resources spent supporting non-English speaking children: £270m in 2016, to be precise. Not an inconsiderable cost.

I also saw an interesting programme prior to the referendum, which followed new immigrant arrivals. In one case, a young chap from Eastern Europe arrived and tried to claim housing and find work as a labourer. After some time homeless he was deported. Thwarted, he simply came back the next year unannounced with his wife and 4 children and was immediately given a house and benefits due to children being involved. This is far from an isolated case. No pressure on housing or indeed benefits, of course.

There is also pressure on the transport infrastructure. Our road network has little room to expand, especially in and around cities. Similarly our public transport networks. Most Impact Assessments on transport have never accounted for increases in the rate of population growth - they assume the UK population to be reasonably constant, or at least growing at 'natural', relatively slow rates. Again, how can anyone plan ahead when they can't forecast the actual numbers?

I could also talk about how rapid mass immigration on communities can be stressful and create friction, and I'd be interested to see which of you shouts 'Little Englander' or xenophobia or racism first. But let me ask you another question: why is it so important to you that immigrants are able to come here unfettered? Why is it less important to address the concerns of British citizens?

We all know Corbyn and his cronies are anti-UK, anti-white, anti-semite. Is that true for everyone on the left?

Whatever. The simple fact is, working-age populations (skilled and unskilled) from Eastern and Southern Europe are flooding in massive numbers to the UK, the French/German area and parts of Scandinavia, although the rate to the UK has been slowing for obvious reasons. Why anyone thinks this a good situation I really can't fathom. Even [url=https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/01/why-its-time-end-eu-free-movementfreaking Vince Cable[/url agrees it's of little benefit to the UK.

Again, I don't attribute these pressures solely to EU immigrants. But they remain a hugely significant factor and as I've always said - it's a numbers game, nothing more.

TL;DR: bren2k's 'facts' are anything but.

Can't really disagree with anything you've said and I think the bold bit just about sums it all up. It's not about who, it's about how many, and what the numbers/issues will be in another 10, 20, 30 years time. And that's coming from someone who has been branded a 'trendy lefty' in the past.

Only recently I was in a discussion where immigrant healthcare workers were being praised for looking after our ageing population. Fair play to them, coming to another country to look after folk who are seeing out their last years, but I had to ask if immigrant workers were going to have extended families and in turn get old and need care themselves. At that moment there was a dawning realisation among the group that immigrant workers hadn't yet found the powers of everlasting youth, in fact it seemed to come as a shock to them! It's just short-term thinking all the time. Solve the problem now but don't touch on how we're going to solve the bigger problem in the next few decades as the immigrant population expands and ages along with the native population, and probably to an even older age. Who's going to look after them?

Immigration is just one piece in the puzzle and while it's an uncomfortable topic for most, the birth/death rates and population projection throw up even more uncomfortable questions.

This sums up the Brexit argument entirely. They are oblivious to the idea that this isn't some evil empire "enforcing" rules on member countries. Those member countries are signed up members whose governments have negotiated mutually beneficial arrangements.

Oh please, the EU is hardly a beacon of democracy. Want to remove the Commission? Nah. A country votes against a treaty? Vote again until you get the result you want. One of your largest nett contributors is unhappy with some aspects of EU membership and lobbies hard for amendments? Tough. Go away "childish country". I call that enforcement even if you don't.

I don't think they're 'evil', that's just nonsense. What I do think is they are utterly committed to a particularly questionable ideology and determined to force all member states in that direction.

Rubbish. The anti EU feeling in the UK is almost entirely the result of 30 years of anti EU stories in the Mail, Sun Express etc. Some of them have admitted telling lies.
We can more or less do as we like within reason, and have done. The reason Cameron couldn't get a better deal out of them in 2015 is that we already had a better deal than the rest.
Those behind the out campaign are those who want to impose draconic anti labour laws on us, or who want free unfettered power. Murdoch, James Dyson, Hannan, that's why they need to be free of the ECJ. Because they want to be able to do what they like. Murdoch and his cronies already control the Tory party, and once we're out, the hammer will come down, and there'll be no going back. Certainly not under the terms we have now anyway.
The chocolate teapot Cameron should have insisted on a 60% clause in the referendum rules. He didn't because he daren't.
Look at those who are currently slagging off the Lords saying it needs reform. The same people, Rees Mogg, Bone, Davies, and Hannon who opposed Lords reform under the coalition. These people will do anything, say anything, and bend any law or rule to get their way. It's THAT important to them. They want us out so that they can oppress the rest of us, with no one to gainsay them.

This, I'm afraid, is entirely the case; Brexit will benefit a very small group of privileged people who are entirely insulated from the societal problems that impact the average joe. Quite how they've persuaded so many of those people to vote for them is a masterclass in propaganda and manipulation - and will probably be studied in politics classes in years to come - by which time I sincerely hope they've all died off and our children have reversed this madness and got us back into the EU. The sad thing of course, is that we'll never have it as good as we have it now - the terms of re-entry will not include all the concessions we currently have.

I've long been opposed to the unelected House of Lords, but we've come to quite a pass when they're the only bulwark between us, and the worst excesses of the extreme Tory Brexiteers.

Do you think that, had Corbyn engaged with the electorate during the referendum campaign, instead of sitting very firmly on the fence, we may had seen a different result.
Having Cameron front up the campaign was a huge mistake as there were so many people that just wanted him to fail (and who can blame them for that).
It currently looks like we will end up well ant truly caught between two stools, with a deal that nobody will be happy with and Mrs May really needs to decide which way the country is going. Right now, the struggle to appease her own fractured party, keep the Unionists on board and avoid a leadership election.
Boris and Gove are already testing her and it could all unravel quite quickly.

I think Corbyn's attitude has been appalling. There is an anti Brexit majority in the Commons, if Corbyn will only get off his backside and do something about it. The way things are going we'll leave the EU through apathy.
I have no proof of this, but IMO large numbers of young people didn't vote in 2015 because they'd been told that voting changes nothing. Along comes the referendum and proof that yes voting certainly does change things. May calls another election in 2017 and large numbers of those who abstained in 2015 vote Labour in the belief that Labour will stop Brexit. These are the people who really matter, the ones who Brexit is really going to disadvantage, Not people like me, most of whom voted Leave, who've already lived most of their lives. If the polls are to be believed there's now a majority for remain, and those in Parliament should ensure there's another vote before it's too late.

Oh we go again...the electorate were too stupid to decide for themselves. You really can't accept you lost, can you? That the majority of the electorate disagreed with you. Can't see past it.

The left and/or Remain isn't short of media support. You've been just as influenced by Remain politicians and media...the Indy, Guardian, Mirror, Observer, BBC and Channel 4. Even the Times supported Remain. And that's all before we take into account the enormous domination of the left on social media. Actually from your posts I'd say you've been brainwashed by the far left in a big way but that's another story.

Fact is, you simply can't accept that 17.4 million people (more than have voted for anything in the UK, ever) simply didn't want to be in the EU anymore; didn't like some of its laws and the direction it's heading in. Perhaps they liked the idea of a trading bloc, but didn't like the pace and volume of the numbers coming in, the speed at which their communities were changing, and when they complained they were labelled racist. Perhaps some felt their wages being squeezed (proven at lower levels). Perhaps others didn't want laws being handed down from Brussels by unelected, unknown and unremovable bureaucrats. Perhaps others didn't like the blatant protectionism of the Customs Union. Perhaps other were dismayed at how the EU has handled a number of crises down the years, up to and including the immigration/refugee crisis. Perhaps others looked 10, 20, 50 years ahead and didn't like where EU is heading.

You probably skimmed over all of that as your brain immediately subconsciously shouted "racist!" or "Nazi!" or "gammon!" or something.

As for your 'draconian anti-labour laws' - you do realise EU law (including employment law) is already enshrined in UK law, or will be via the Withdrawal Act (ignore the Scots)? You do also realise the UK is in fact a world leader in employee protections, and leads the way ahead of the EU in many cases? In reality multinationals love the EU for its cheap labour and open borders offering tariff-free trade and supply chains. What you're saying is absolute bollox with zero basis in fact.

Just to take up your point on "not knowing what you/we were voting for".
Clearly nobody knew quite what we were voting for.
18 months down the line and the 12 members of the cabinet cant agree the best way to solve the "customs union issue".
So, which option did we all vote for ? I'm happy to admit that I din't know and if you knew, you must have one hell of a good crystal ball.
There were some "ideals" spelled out by Farage & Co but, they were ideals and many of his ideas simply aren't workable, let alone acceptable to the current government or Parliament and we'll just ignore Ireland, after all, it didn't get much of a mention during the campaign.
You may have known what you wanted and you may have known what you were promised but, we all know that these are 2 very different things.

What if I voted to give 350 million quid a week to the NHS?

Or, end free movement, which may not quite happen, depending on the "customs union" that we actually have (if the Cabinet can make their minds up AND sell their idea to the EU).

Hope you have a healthy bank balance, because bumbling Boris isn't giving it to them after he sucked everyone into believing he would to get your vote.

What I've been influenced by is that this country was on its backside in the 60's "the sick man of Europe" and now it's (was) one of the most prosperous countries in the world.
Then of course there's the fact that the EU has kept the peace in Europe for over 70 years. Between 1870 and 1945 Alsace Lorraine changed hands four times!
Then there's the peace in NI partly made possible because both parties to the Good Friday agreement were EU members, and thus differences could easily be settled.
As for employment law. What's to stop a UK government from changing the law the moment we come out of the EU. James Dyson has made it clear that that's one of his aims.
To take such an irrevocable stop on such a small majority really doesn't make sense. So 17.4m voted to come out. Another 16m voted to stay, are their views to be totally ignored. What if some of those who voted leave changed their minds. What about all those who didn't vote? What about all those who weren't qualified (by age) to vote and are now, they've made it abundantly clear where they stand. A 60% majority on a decision like this should have been mandatory.
I don't think the electorate is stupid, I think they've been misled by the likes of Boris Johnson, who's admitted making anti EU stories up when he was a journo on the Telegraph. Kelvin Mckenzie who is a proven liar (Hillsborough) and Paul Dacre who is cracked on the subject.

What I've been influenced by is that this country was on its backside in the 60's "the sick man of Europe" and now it's (was) one of the most prosperous countries in the world.
Then of course there's the fact that the EU has kept the peace in Europe for over 70 years. Between 1870 and 1945 Alsace Lorraine changed hands for times!
Then there's the peace in NI partly made possible because both parties to the Good Friday agreement were EU members, and thus differences could easily be settled.
As for employment law. What's to stop a UK government from changing the law the moment we come out of the EU. James Dyson has made it clear that that's one of his aims.
To take such an irrevocable stop on such a small majority really doesn't make sense. So 17.4m voted to come out. Another 16m voted to stay, are their views to be totally ignored. What if they've changed their minds. What about all those who didn't vote? What about all those who weren't qualified (by age) to vote and are now, they've made it abundantly clear where they stand. A 60% majority on a decision like this should have been mandatory.
I don't think the electorate is stupid, I think they've been misled by the likes of Boris Johnson, who's admitted making anti EU stories up when he was a journo on the Telegraph. Kelvin Mckenzie who is a proven liar (Hillsborough) and Paul Dacre who is cracked on the subject.

I voted to leave. Simple as that.

The detail was always going to be thrashed out later. I'd have thought that was always obvious. Once all the bluster is over the deal will most likely be mostly mutually beneficial, although of course it won't be as good as full EU membership. A price worth paying.

When I vote a government in I don't then demand another election if the detail of their governance isn't precisely what I personally expected.

Why would you do that?

So, are you happy to remain in a customs union or, would this, as some commentators suggest, not actually mean "leaving" or, are you still happy to leave everything to the group of elected representative to find "the best" deal for the country ?

Regarding a government nod adhering to policy or "if the detail of their governance isn't precisely what I personally expected".
I would suggest that you may be incorrect, as, you will always, at least in theory, have the chance to vote said government "out" when the next election comes around.
This particular option isnt applicable with Brexit, unless there is a second referendum.
Maybe this would be the right thing for the country, as we would actually know what we were voting for ?

We can't stay in "the" customs union, and indeed we aren't - as has been confirmed by No.10 many, many, many times. We're also leaving the single market. Of course "a" customs union would be lovely, as long as we don't have to accept EU rules such as freedom of movement, and we can sign our own trade deals independently. Unfortunately the EU are very unlikely to agree to that, although they could surprise us bearing in mind the Irish and Channel borders, and the high levels of trade and economic integration between the UK and the EU. A (not quite free) trade agreement is also likely.

I'm perfectly happy to leave it to our elected representative to negotiate it as long as they honour the vote. That's why they were elected. I'd say the same if it was Labour (except Diane Abbott). They understand that 'leave means leave', and are largely ignoring the bluster and those seeking to block Brexit. Oh, of course if you listen to the BBC, C4 and left-wing rags you probably aren't happy, but in fact negotiations have gone pretty much as most reasonable people predicted.


Tough, that's democracy in action. You don't keep going back until the minority get the result they want.

Unless you're the EU.

No you get a chance to kick them out a few years later, and I bet you spend the intervening years moaning about how stupid the electorate were to vote them in in the first place.
The reason I say it should have been 60% is that there will be no chance to change our minds 4/5 years down the line. We should have another vote, confirm the last one if for no other reason than that the decision is so final.

Perhaps we should leave it to the editor of the Daily Mail? After all he's as constant as the North Star. Or maybe he isn't.
What did he say about the House of Lords the other week? "Traitors" "IT'S TIME TO PULL THE PLUG ON THE HOUSE OF LORDS... WITH EACH DAY THIS HOUSE LOOKS RIPER FOR THE ABATOIR"
Funny that, because in 1998 when New Labour wanted to start reforming the Lords what did he say?
"What Blair wants isn't a more modern House of Lords but a more pliant House of Lords"
Or in 1999 on the same subject "if it ain't broke don't fix it"
Or in 2000 when the Lords blocked the removal of the iniquitous Clause 28 ""the Lords have shown they are truly representative of the people"
Or in 2001 "We are moving to a form of elective dictatorship" funny then that he supported Theresa May's attempt by using powers granted to Henry VIII to by-pass parliament entirely.
2007, on another Labour defeat "Praise be to the Lords"
or finally in 2011 with the coalition in power, again on Lords reform "Nick Clegg has chosen to clog up parliamentary time with the utterly irrelevant distraction of a bill to reform the Lords"

In other words they'd do anything, say anything, bend any rule, to get their own way. It's THAT important to them. The question we should all be asking ourselves is why these normally self centred men should be expending such large amounts of their time, money and influence to get this through. What's in it for them? But unfortunately, no one on either side of the political divide seems to have the guts to ask that question

Well, you'll be able to moan about how stupid the 52% are forever.



Why 60%? It's an arbitrary number with no basis in psephology whatsoever. Why not 55%? 70%? Or even...52%?

Yes, I realise we get the opportunity to change the government after their term, but you don't get to spit your dummy and re-run the General Election if you don't like the result. Political discussion on the left has devolved to school-yard levels: too many believe that if you don't win and don't agree, shout and shout until you get your way.

Here's a lesson for you: voting in a democracy does not mean trying again and again until the minority win.

Always been sore losers, the left.

"You lost - get over it."

"If you don't like it, go live in the EU."

and...



Lovely stuff.