I know you like to pretend an air of intellectual superiority over anyone with liberal views with your smug, patronising tone, but don't talk such crap. The type of terrorist acts we are discussing are carried out by impressionable individuals, not the dictators who manipulate them. The most peaceful countries in the world tend to be those with stable economies, with state control over key industries, with smaller extremes in wages, with strong health & social policies, with a constructive approach to their penal systems, who don't wage wars abroad for egotistical reasons.

All military action is carried out by impressionable individuals - you do see the generals on the front line.

The most peaceful countries in the world tend to be small and insignificant - like the ones in Scandinavia - they have no influence on the world stage. They can't wage wars as they don't have the resources to fund them.

I have asked time and again show me a true Socialist country i.e. the state generates the wealth where the population are happy and relatively wealthy. I know big business is bad in your eyes but somebody has to generate the wealth to do all the touchy-feely stuff you value.

Which part of my post could possibly have been interpreted as me advocating ISIS being allowed to do whatever they want?



And I've provided you with a list of at least 5 countries who deliver the type of socialism that JC is proposing; and you failed to respond. Instead, you use the typical right wing strategy of creating a false dichotomy, then arguing against the position that you pretend your opponents have taken... For clarity - I don't see anyone proposing a text book socialist model, so you can save your typing fingers arguing against it.

You are saying we should not get involved don't bomb these types of groups - so that suggests as long as it isn't happening here its OK they can do they want.

I been back through this thread and you haven't listed one country - so let's try again. Just give one country where they have this narrower gap on incomes.

1. No it doesn't - it suggests that we should rethink our foreign policy, which most experts and even some Tories (although they deny each others meaning after the fact when it's convenient) agree has provided motivation and opportunity for terrorists to recruit people.

2. I listed Finland, Sweden Norway, Denmark and The Netherlands as countries which practice a form of collectivism that is closely related to socialism; and one could include Canada and China on that list - not pure, textbook socialism, which I accept doesn't work - but a model that has capitalism, with strong socialist programmes, co-existing quite comfortably.

Cue deluded Little Englanders bleating about the insignificance of some of these places on the world stage - forgetting of course that we just Brexited ourselves into a similarly insignificant status. Great places to live though, for the most part.

I'm pretty certain by the response to what happened that we live in an environment that knows bombing and killing innocent people is wrong. People say we should go about our lives as normal but then again are we having to tiptoe around and make sure we don't do anything that could possibly offend anybody, contradictory much. You can stop bombing overseas, you can be as nice and welcoming to minorities as possible and you'll still the likes of ISIS trying to kill and bomb us because they simply hate the West and they'll find reasons for still doing it. I agree with others, the country has to get tougher, that's not giving into hate, that's trying to protect the people of Britain.

The GDP of the UK is bigger than 5 of the countries you mentioned combined. The UK has the 5/6th largest economy in the world it has influence inside or outside of the EU. It could be argued that it has great influence outside as the EU appears to spouting policies/agendas that suit the Germans and the French.

France has been targeted more than most by these attacks - their military intervention is nothing like that of the US influenced UK so that would indicate that its far more complex than us going into Iraq/Libya etc.

Perhaps if we hadn't opened our doors to all and sundry like the family of the Manchester bomber then perhaps these events might be more controllable?

This is where you get the point mixed up. We aren't being attacked in revenge for bombing. It's that our clumsy and ill thought out interventions have created power vacuums, poverty and misery in these areas, which make people in the area susceptible to extremists.

All they have to do is convince people with nothing to lose to fight for their cause, blame the west for all their woes and offer them a bit of security. Even easier for them in areas with such low levels of education.

No one is suggesting letting Isis roam around as they please, but cracking down on the overwhelmingly innocent muslim community in the UK (who reported the bomber to authorities several times) is not the answer. Integration is a 2 way street.

And this is exactly the nuance that people like Sal won't engage with; if you advocate doing anything other than all out war, you're pandering to terrorists and apologising for suicide bombers. The level of political debate in the UK is depressingly facile at times, thanks in large part to the right wing media, who have a vested interest in perpetuating the status quo.

Our GDP per capita is pathetic. The fact that GDP creeks up is meaningless of itself.

So last few attacks in the country have been undertaken by British Muslims - does that suggest to you that integration is working?

What happened in Rochdale, Rotherham, Keighley and numerous other places does that suggest integration is really working - society has become even more polarised and that is just the fault of the indigenous population.

This is a society that gives the likes of Hamsa a voice and then we wonder why we get bombed!!

Very similar to Germany - I suppose they are pathetic too?

For years white males in positions of influence and authority have been abusing children on a scale far bigger than that of Rochdale or Rotherham. It doesn't matter what race or religion you are, these sick perverts exist in all walks of life and it is not confined to one group of people. Using those incidents to prove a point makes it a seriously flawed argument.

You'll ruin his anti muslim/immigrant story.
Dont mention the Catholic church, you'll properly ruin him.

Oh please.



No-one has ever denied child abuse exists in many walks of life, but to stick your fingers in your ears wailing 'la la la' and pretending there ISN'T a specific cultural issue with gangs of Asian males targeting and grooming young white English girls is either naivety or stupidity of the highest order. In reality I suspect a brainwashed and blinkered leftist brain simply can't acknowledge or comprehend the unpleasant truth.

It's a typical leftist denial/apologist response - ironically PRECISELY the sort of attitude that led to so many of those girls' cries for help being ignored for so long, and part of the reason so many in this country are fed up to the back teeth with being told how flaming wonderful multiculturalism and mass immigration is.

Well said - exactly this.

Ergo it is typical right wing white middle aged male attitude that has permitted the likes of Jimmy Saville, Rolf Harris, Gary Glitter, as well as the church to get away with years of abuse.

France had colonies in north Africa and was a major part (with us) of the carving up of Iraq and Syria a 100 years ago and sewed the seeds of troubles there to this day. France also with us took part in the bombing of Libya to remove Gadaffi without a recovery plan that's worked out so well.

So France has done its share of foreign policy that has upset peoples in the arab world.

You're probably correct, although I'm not sure where right-wing comes into it - I doubt many Catholic priests are right-wing and the arts/music/TV industries are overwhelmingly left-wing. More likely a combination of fear of reprisal, denial and in the case of the church, a feeling of being untouchable.

What's interesting is you can happily talk about the part 'white middle-aged' men may have played in the cases of abuse you've mentioned, but can you dare acknowledge the specific cultural issue of gangs of Asian men grooming and sexually abusing underage white English girls? Go on, you know you want to. Or are you sticking your head in the sand like the rest?

Again - this is PRECISELY the attitude that prolonged the (known) abuse for many years and ignored the girls' pleas for help: an ingrained fear of being accused of racism, whilst being happy to condemn the girls as white trash not worthy putting in front of a jury. Stick your head in the sand and it'll all go away. This foolish left-wing attitude is part of the problem.

(lalala fingers in ears mustn't mention race lalala)

No it is acknowledged that there is a specific issue with these grooming gangs, and steps have been taken to address this problem and root out the offenders. There was a fear of offence in the mid 2000's which was an issue and again, has been addressed. All frontline staff are now specifically trained to spot signs, report and engage young people at risk of this kind of abuse.

The right wing knee-jerk reaction to start pretending its a significant proportion of muslims who are responsible for this kind of behaviour and terrorist incidents. This in turn leads to idiots committing hate crime and further fuelling the flames of division, which suits the Islamists cause. Integration is a 2 way street.

I lived in the centre of Bradford from 1992-2000 & worked there for 16 years so am very familiar with the different cultures. I was never aware of any grooming or abuse of white girls during that period. But I did witness numerous instances of unacceptable physical & emotional abuse from Asian men to Asian women. Extreme patriarchy & sexism. I grew up in a white only mining village where I saw the same behaviours exhibited there, usually more violent as it was often fueled by alcohol.

Nope, you can't admit it. Instead you (bizarrely) conflate it with domestic abuse.

You're doing a grand job of proving my point.

Give over. No-one has said it's a significant proportion of Muslims. Don't make things up to suit your agenda.

There has been welcome progress, of course, but the sort of denial/apologist/straw man rhetoric we see on these boards is typical of the left and precisely how the specific cultural issue of the abuse of under-age white girls by gangs of Asian men was allowed to persist unchecked for so many years.

And as far as I'm concerned, anyone peddling such rhetoric carries part of the blame for such a culture being allowed to exist and flourish, and skew the decision-making process within the Police/CPS/Social Services in Rochdale, Rotherham, Keighley, Blackpool, Oldham, Blackburn, Sheffield, Manchester, Skipton, Nelson, Preston, Derby, Telford, Bradford, Ipswich, Birmingham, Oxford, Barking and Peterborough - and in court only a few weeks ago, Huddersfield.

There is not just a problem in Asian communities. There is a problem in society and to only point out the issues within a certain community is what others on here are highlighting as wrong.

No one is saying these communities don't have issues, but to single them out when the same issues have been going on for years in all communities and walks of life shows bigotry.

So what's your solution to a problem that is already identified and being dealt with? No one is denying it happens but you can see where accusations of racism come from when you only bang on about child abusers of a certain ethnic background.

Sadly child abuse is not rare in our society. The fear of being labelled racist was wrong and we had got into a bad culture there but that particular issue is long gone.

All the left say is target the bad guys, but do not denigrate all immigrants who generally make a positive contribution to this country in many ways.