But you haven't given many, or any, examples of Corbyn lying. I am not a great fan but do think he is a honourable man who has committed his life to helping the oppressed; despite the obvious vilification that accompanies that.
I don't think I have done much verbal abuse recently; in fact I thought I was restrained.
I certainly don't hate this country; but there are certain elements of it that I do. I have worked hard all my life to try & make it a better palce. However I have reached the stage where I have almost given up on England. If things stay as they are, or likely worsen, we will leave England. I have been to Ireland several times, including Cork. I agree it is a fantastic place.

That is word for word my overall opinion too. I believe he is a decent man and exactly the type of socialist that needs to be on the backbenches keeping Labour honest when they are inhabiting the centre ground. But this country desperately needs a potent opposition and he just doesn't have what it takes to lead. Particularly at this time of unprecedented turmoil where he is torn between his longstanding ideological mistrust of the EU, and what deep down he knows is best for the people he represents. He can't be the effective leader Labour needs because his head must be mush trying to process that conflict.

Well said, sir.

I believe that his intentions, generally are good but, probably because he is so torn, personally, on the issue of Brexit, he is just not leading the party and it will cost them severely when the inevitable election comes around.
Far more effective from the backbench than as leader.
Mind you, with the influence of the Unions in leadership contests, the situation is unlikely to change anytime soon.
Their choices of leader since Blair have been poor.

Yes, the country needs someone to lead them into an illegal war rather than fight for justice, peace, sustainability, workers' rights.....

The dilemma for those that lean left is that seemingly Labour has to adopt a very centre-left position to be able to win enough hearts and minds to have an election victory. Blair in 1997 for example. It appears that for many socialists this is repugnant and Blair is perceived by them as "Tory-lite", a war criminal or both.

That's versus the more traditional left-wing ideals of social justice and all that entails which I believe will struggle to garner enough support to form a majority government. Do people on the left want to be in power and able to affect some change, however diluted. Or do they want to remain firm to their socialist principles and possibly not be elected to enact them. I'm not a Labour voter but I recognise their importance and it pains me to see this almost existentialist conflict about what they are meant to be and what they can pragmatically achieve.

I didn't mention Brexit so I'm off-topic. I'll just say Bercow for Prime Minister and it'll be ok.

Good leaders are not always right but, they have the ability to unite and fight for the common good.
Although there is no doubt whatsoever that we should have gone to war, equally, there is no doubt that, if/when the USA ask us again in the future, we will make exactly the same choice.
Such is our need for them to defend us if/when we are in need, the cost of this is that we have to dance and sing when the political music starts.

Blair understood that, you can have all the ideals and principles that you want but, if you dont hold the reigns, you cannot actually drive the stagecoach.
Yes, he had to sacrifice certain principals but, at least once in power, he was able to improve the lives of millions of UK residents.
This cant be done whilst looking on from the sidelines.

I must have missed the improvements made by Labour under Blurgh and Brown...

That won't come as a surprise to anyone.

Because there weren't any.

You do realise this could quite easily become a "What have the Romans ever done for us" moment. I'll start with the biggest hospital building programme in the history of the NHS.

You mean PFI and the massive ongoing cost associated?

Record investment in the NHS, schools and the police.
Introduction of the National Minimum Wage and the New Deal.
Devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
Good Friday Agreement.
Introducing Civil Partnerships, the Equality Act, the Human Rights Act.
Cancelled debt for the world’s poorest countries.
World’s first Climate Change Act.
Allowed stupid people to continue to vote.

But apart from all that, basically nothing right?

Well I ask myself whether when my family members are being treated in the state of the art Cancer facility at St James's in Leeds, I should focus on the amazing facility or the funding methodology. Early PFI was crap and created an unhelpful debt burden, but you have to weigh that up against the huge overhaul of aging infrastructure it helped deliver.

Your point by point dismissal of everything Tigertot wrote is extreme. Even a Tory MP could begrudgingly point to a handful of positive achievements of the Blair and Brown years. You don't HAVE to adopt such an extreme position. It makes it very hard to engage you in any type of debate.

Do not be silly.

Self-awareness. It's a start.

I thought i would just fill the list out a little.

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

NHS - that period widely accepted as the one that stuffed the NHS in the longer-term - PFI, crazy new GP contracts, interfering and appointing lots of managers. Most of the NHS' current problems date to then. The undoubted short-term improvements have left a longer-term legacy which is wretched.

Devolution for Scotland - is making Labour unelectable nationally. I doubt we with EVER see another majority Labour government in the UK. It has also given a huge boost to the Independence movement.

Climate Change Act - posturing. Nobody in power or business has any will to deal with the matter. If they did the economy would need to contract massively. Businesses just use 'green' as a marketing tool while continuing by there very existence to add to environmental degradation.

JD mentioned NHS Direct. Assuming that is the 111 thing it is the most dangerous, useless 'service' imaginable. NEVER use it if somebody you know could potentially in a bad way.

The fact that you havent derided the other stuff, I assume, means that you may actually approve of it.
The PFI hospital builds, whilst now known to be the wrong way to solve the problem, did massively improve the fabric of the NHS and as the previous poster suggested, how it is being paid for isn't even a consideration when you go through the doors for treatment.
Compare the list mentioned to the swingeing austerity cuts under the Tories, who then expect us all to be grateful when they START to reverse some of their cuts, while at the same time not admitting that may of these cuts are the very reason for rising knife crime, increased drug use, homelessness etc, etc, etc
The Tories used to love to bang on about being "the party for law and order". Most crimes are not even recorded these days and when you get burgled, there isn't even a plan for catching the perpetrators.
At least it paves the way for tax cuts for the wealthiest in society though, so, it's all good stuff



One thing for sure.
If you have one, then, pray to your god that any youngsters that you know, dont suffer with any mental health issues.
The story in the news this week of the poor university student who took her own life is just the tip of the iceberg.
3 months waiting list for "urgent" cases and feck the rest and if you think that this is acceptable, the Tories are the party for you.

Well I for one think the NHS does a great job given the abuse it suffer from its customers. Patients not attending precious appointments, people attending A&E unnecessarily, treatments that shouldn't be undertaken in a public funded organisation. Patients abusing the NHS for their own ends and not looking after themselves e.g. diabetes. Perhaps if we all treated the service with the respect it deserves then there would be more funds available to treat mental illness etc.

You could put the whole GDP of the UK into the NHS and it still wouldn't be enough - so how do you choose your priorities - heart surgery v psychology - oncology v psychiatry etc. Do you turn people away at A&E and let them die so you spend the money on a mental condition - there is only so much money.

Perhaps inefficient due to its size and complexity but overall a huge force for good that I'm proud of. That statement holds true for both the NHS and the EU.

Fixed that for you.