May's red lines were not part of the referendum and shouldn't be our starting point now she has gone - the fact that she put them in place, guaranteeing a very hard form of Brexit, is the root of the trouble we find ourselves in. She could have approached it more moderately, forsaken some of the far right wing but found support from Labour. As the revised compromise version of her bill, which they are trying to revive, would probably have done.

All of which is a reminder that the only reason we're still in the EU is because people like Rees-Mogg and, for a time, Johnson himself, voted down Brexit bills which their party had agreed was party policy. But little bit of betrayal of leave voters and hypocrisy given their current stance doesn't seem to get mentioned by the Brexit ultras.

They probably shouldn’t, but unless Labour can cobble together some sort coalition (tough with Corbyn as leader and agreement not extending much further than no to no deal), they probably will.

May could have taken a more moderate line, but as it got more necessary after she lost the Tory majority, it also got more difficult because she’d also lost so much authority. From her perspective, Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell probably inspire as much trust and fellow feeling as Johnson, Raab and Rees-Mogg do in me. The middle ground in UK politics, where a deal could have been done has been hollowed out.

Maybe the DUP will allow a Northern Ireland only backstop. If Johnson can bring any sort of vaguely credible deal back to parliament, it’ll put Labour in an invidious position.

The problem with staying in the single market and the customs union is that you are leaving but you are not really leaving. The single market allows for free movement of labour, at the time of the referendum this was a major concern for leave voters - not sure it is quite the issue it was. It also leaves the UK answerable to the ECJ which is a major issue to this day.

The customs union is a problem in Ireland - sacrificing the north seems a reasonable solution to me if we want to accept May's deal.

The problem is we were never going to get the best of both worlds and as such leaving with no deal initially seems the best solution. Both parties can then truly assess the impact and then negotiations can start from a position of actual happenings not "project fear".

Both parties want their cake and to eat it - the EU want our money and to exert control without UK influence and we want free trade but no contribution - irresistible force and immovable object.

I know some people like to claim that cutting one leg off will cause a terrible limp. But it's only if we have the courage to cut a leg off that we can see how bad that limp is. Then we'll be in a position to choose which prosthetic to use which probably won't be all that bad considering.

I'd check first that it was the leg causing the limp, because if not cutting the leg off wont solve it.
Sometimes you can blame the leg when in fact it's something else that's causing the pain and hurt your struggling with and blaming the leg and cutting it off might not solve it.
Oh and BTW
Whilst 17.4 million 3 years ago may want to have their leg cut off there were 16.8 plus 12m who didn't vote along with the extra million or so that are now eligible to have an opinion who werent back then, who are very much against having their leg cut off without knowing the full facts.
I'm more than happy now I have explored those facts with my decision 3 years ago not to cut it off but to have a 2nd opinion and would suggest it may be a good idea to ask those people again to confirm they actually want it cut off.
And the leg analogy downtown really work when (and I can only be honest here) I feel the vast majority of people voted to cut MY leg off without knowing what they know now.

The 3 years that have passed, those that didn't vote and those that have become eligible (plus those that may no longer be able to vote) are utterly irrelevant.
Any referendum can only be a snapshot at the time.
The whole problem that we have currently is that Parliament wont put through the deal that was put before it (May's deal) and has now passed a law preventing no deal and until Boris is able to agree a new deal with the EU and his time is running out pretty quickly, we remain stuck in limbo.
There should be a seperate discussion about the lies that were peddled by the "leave" group but, quite frankly, the "remain" camp were so bloody arrogant and lazy with their campaign that, they couldn't persuade the majority of the voting public to side with them.
The Leave camp all insist that "they knew what they were voting for" and I'm sure that they did but, what they certainly didn't know and still dont know is what they are going to get.
What we know for sure is that there was NEVER going to be an extra £350million a week for the NHS
There is still no viable solution for the Irish backstop and this was not mentioned by leave or remain during the referendum
and Turkey, despite being "about to join" the EU are not even a small step closer to doing so.

The one certainty is that Brexit has made our country more divided and a less safe place to live so, it's all been really worth while so far.

How has Brexit made it a "less safe place to live"?

Ahh there speaks the soul of the Conservative and Unionist party. There can't be too many of the party's principles left now?

I think many or even most people in Northern Ireland would be happy for us to draw the EU line up the middle of the Irish Sea as long as they also remain part of the UK. The amount of capital and investment which would flow to Belfast would make them an economic powerhouse almost overnight.

Hate crimes have increased by 41% since the referendum

You mean REPORTED hate crimes, and if you believe you can attribute that to tje EU referendum you are borrowing straws to clutch at.

Remoaners will turn any statistic to their cause. I wanted to remain, we have voted leave, people need to deal with it, just as I'll have to deal with it if Labour win a GE again in my lifetime.

It's not as if it is new. There are already checks in place on animals & animal derived products going to NI from the mainland.

Ah, right ?
So with a referendum based largely on "too much immigration" had zero effect on hate crime. Wow, just wow.
No straw clutching from me but, utter denial from you.

Have you not noticed Boris' key "election" pledge of recruiting 18,000 more police officers, maybe this was because he thought thet the uniform looked smart and in no way a response to increasing crime of all types, perhaps this is another sign of the safer streets that we all live on



I dont care what you voted, it doesn't seem to have stopped you being wrong on the issue of crime.
Mind you it was interesting to hear on of the most senior police officers yesterday, saying that, taking account of the policemen/women that are expected to leave the force in the next 3 years, coupled with the drive to recruit 18,000 new officers, they would need around 500,000 applicants.

Yes I think that must be about the most absurd a statement as I've read from a quitling. What their side of the debate simply cannot cope with is that the billboards, negative messages from the leave campaign and everything since has normalised hate. People who have always had vile views about race, sexuality and just about any other characteristic, realised they could now give voice to it. And once they'd stopped swallowing down the hate they found they couldn't stop spewing it. These Neanderthals even occasionally gift wrap the hate by adding a slogan such as "We voted OUT" whilst harassing the polish couple. But then I suppose that's not a reference to the referendum. It must be about the Hokey Cokey or something.

Nah, apparently it's just reporting that has increased, with the actual figures coming down



I know that social media can distort all issues and that most things, especially that which is on line, need tempering.
However, there is absolutely no doubt that the polarised views which so many people now hold, have caused irrevocable damage to society.
And it doesnt help that those demanding that the UK pass it's own laws and give control to Parliament, then chose to close down the institution that they "value" so much.
Self serving hypocrites the lot of em.

a quitling that voted remain?

you really are not very bright.

In tribute to the departing John Bercow - point of order; it's not 18k *more* police officers - it's 18k of the 20k officers his government has already cut.

I fear the honourable gentleman may have inadvertently misled the house.

I'm well aware of that Bren.
Quite increddible that just a few short months ago, the Tories were trying to tell us that the reduction in police numbers had nothing to do with escalating crime figures and that it was because "we" now needed a different style of policing and it was nothing to do with austerity cuts.
Lies, lies, lies.

The grown ups were chatting about you cheekychops. And there's not a chance in hell you voted remain.

You are wrong, I voted remain, have commented as much all along, but I believe in democracy, the majprity voted to leave.

You can attempt to be condescending all you want, I will just laugh. Opinions only count when offered by someone whom you respect, afterall.

"A condescending person tends to have some control issues, insecurities and emotional baggage. They deal with this by inappropriately projecting the persona of a parent or authority figure onto other who, in the eues of any reasonable person, would have as much agency, indepemdencs and personal power as they do."

No you didn't. The remainer who "believes in democracy" / "just wants to get on with it" is a fictional construct of brexiters. It's an unsubtle attempt to artificially inflate the level of support in society for leaving the EU.

more nonsense...

again

A condescending person tends to have some control issues, insecurities and emotional baggage. They deal with this by inappropriately projecting the persona of a parent or authority figure onto other who, in the eues of any reasonable person, would have as much agency, indepemdencs and personal power as they do.

My belief is that the phenomenon of remain voters changing their mind largely does not exist. I'm not sure that fits the definition of condescending so you appear to be deflecting by resorting to insults.

oh dear, big man with green username claims I insulted him, merely by pointing out his condescending nature.

I am glad you are so small minded as to equate abhorrent views on race, sexuality etc. with the people (which again, for clarity, does not include me) voted to leave. You show yourself up, narrow minded and opinionated and the self perceived fount of all that is true. The gospel according to Pumpetypump.

I haven't a clue what that means.

I tend to agree - it's become common parlance for morons like Mark Francois and his ilk, to say that 'the people' just want politicians to 'get on with it.' I voted Remain, as did most people I know, and I don't know anyone who voted that way, who is now just shrugging their shoulders and wishing it was done and dusted. My old Mum voted Leave, and even she's scared of a version of Brexit she didn't vote for, being bulldozed through parliament by Boris Johnson.

It's a well worn trope of politicians of all stripes, to say "businesses I speak to" or "my constituents" as a proxy for their own opinion; this is no different.