Can you cite a few of these many laws created by 'unelected Eurocrats'?

Do I need to? You know as well as I do that they exist. Alright, many of them might seem insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

We were heading towards a situation where the EU would become a fully functioning federal nation state. It already has a flag, an anthem, a parliament and a court that is superior to our own legal system.

Quote ="The Ghost of '99"Can you cite a few of these many laws created by 'unelected Eurocrats'?'" It's not an easy question to answer. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what ... uenced-eu/

Quote ="The Ghost of '99"Can you cite a few of these many laws created by 'unelected Eurocrats'?'" It's not an easy question to answer. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what ... uenced-eu/

Quote ="Charlie Sheen"It's not an easy question to answer. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what ... uenced-eu/'" That shows, sort of, how to determine the amount of UK laws influenced by the EU. What about the second half of wigan_rlfc's oh-so certain statement: how many on the EU side didn't go through the elected European Parliament or get approval from our own elected UK government?

Quote ="Charlie Sheen"It's not an easy question to answer. https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what ... uenced-eu/'" That shows, sort of, how to determine the amount of UK laws influenced by the EU. What about the second half of wigan_rlfc's oh-so certain statement: how many on the EU side didn't go through the elected European Parliament or get approval from our own elected UK government?

I don't always agree with Peter Hitchens, but he's spot on in both of his assessments of the Tory, and Labour front benches. https://youtu.be/LnCvl2T_o5o

I don't always agree with Peter Hitchens, but he's spot on in both of his assessments of the Tory, and Labour front benches. https://youtu.be/LnCvl2T_o5o

And now Labour start a civil war amongst themselves, lovely.

It's a strange if not interesting time in politics the Lib Dems committed political suicide and the two main parties have completely imploded.

Quite bizarre

A Ten Point Plan For Labour To Regain The Workers Vote

1) Stop supporting the free movement of Labour! At one time Labour fought to save jobs in local communities whilst the capitalists told workers to ‘get on their bikes and find work’. Studies have proven that immigration has small impact on average wages but more significant impacts along the wage distribution, low-waged workers lose while medium and high-paid workers gain.
2) Guarantee that all legitimate asylum seekers and refugees will be welcome to find safety in our country.
3) Put Blair and Cameron on trial for their war crimes.
4) Nationalise the Banking system.
5) Use newly created public money to start building the infrastructure needed, new houses, new schools etc.
6) Pledge the British forces will never set foot on foreign soil unless working under a U.N mandate.
7) Pledge to help workers and unions in other countries in their struggle against global capitalism
8 Repeal all anti union laws enacted since the days of Thatcher.
9) Pledge to introduce proportional representation into U.K politics.
10) Pledge to ban fracking in the U.K and to promote a ‘Green’ energy bill.

I'd agree with most of that. I'm not against free movement of labour, however it's clear the majority of the electorate are, and both major parties have dismissed this group of voters as bigots. To be fair some of them are, but that doesn't mean the politicians who are meant to represent their constituents should ignore them. It alienates them, and as a result are gravitated to the likes of UKIP.

I agree with that list. However, the decision to leave the EU is only even vaguely relevant to number (1). Yet unless we accept (1), we will have tariffs on all our trade, which will essentially bankrupt us and thus prevent us from spending money on anything from the rest of the list.

The real answer to free movement of people is not to erect a fence to keep them out, but to impose and enforce a national minimum wage which allows British workers to live with dignity and comfort, and prevents unscrupulous companies from undercutting those workers using cheap imported Labour. After all, if everyone who wants a decent job has one, then nobody really gives a stuff if some guys from Warsaw are working alongside them.

That's at the heart of this - firms who deliberately import and recruit workers on pay and conditions which would be below a level of decency for British workers trying to live a normal family life. And that's not going to be affected in any way by the EU exit. Indeed, the EU should be part of the solution, because by imposing common standards for workers (holidays, maternity leave, minimum pay) across the continent, it makes it much harder for firms to play the "You'll accept low wages, or I'm off to Slovakia" card.

The EU was part of the solution, not part of the problem. The marginalised working class should have been campaigning for the UK government to take a lead in strengthening EU employment legislation in order to prevent such exploitation by greedy firms.

Instead, we've voted for a group of charlatans who have already confirmed that free movement of Labour will continue outside the EU, and they will take this opportunity to remove the employment protections which the EU did actually impose (they call it "red-tape", and a few more people should have asked what it was before they merrily voted to cut it).

This was a decision of monumental self-defeating stupidity. I'm sorry if that gets people's backs up, but it was. In every way, this vote will make conditions for British workers worse. Our employment protections will be cut by the extreme right-wingers who are about to take over, free movement of Labour will remain, as it does with any country which wants to trade with the EU without tariffs, and there'll be fewer jobs and higher prices as firms pull out of the UK to relocate inside the EU, and imports become more expensive due to the devalued pound.

So yes, I support your list. But we just voted against every single item on it. This is the biggest facepalm in British political history.

Labour will never learn. The Blairites who have more or less destroyed the party are now destroying the remnants.

Absolutely spot on - the country has just been consigned to the economic doldrums off the back of a referendum that even its poster child didn't expect or want to win; Boris Johnson, make no mistake, would have campaigned just as vociferously for Remain, if it meant ousting his old Bullingdon rival and getting a crack at the PM job. His jolly jape has now gone disastrously wrong, and all the low paid, working class people who voted Out will face a future under the yoke of a right wing Tory rule that will erode their rights and freedoms far more egregiously than any made-up European legislation - most of which did more good than harm in terms of protecting workers rights and social justice.

Thankfully the shadow politicians who were as much Labour as That woman have taken their bat and ball home and gone off to sulk. If they haven't the stones to fight their beliefs from within what chance outside? Well to me I wouldn't trust them at all nor should the current or future leader.
We live in interesting times and a great opportunity for change, the faux politicians will soon be found out, as some already have, and perhaps the future may be beneficial once these people from all parties have been found out.

A great opportunity for change.

Change without an opposition, or any parties that are willing to talk amongst themselves never mind each other.

If you voted against the establishment and the old politicians then be aware that you gave those exact same people two years to undertake the largest transformation in the country's history and pretty much gave them a two year deadline with which to do it. If you consider this a process by which "the worker" will win you are going to be disappointed.

Like a lot of Remain voters, I feel trapped in a bit of a nightmare not of my own making. All the economic experts said that if we vote Brexit, the consequences for the nation's economy would be catastrophic. Gove said "Pah, who needs experts?", and every Tom, Dick and Harry who hasn't looked at a graph since school decided that all the economists and institutions were wrong, and we voted Brexit.

Now, we have economic carnage. The markets are first to move, because they're the most reactive, and it's been unbelievable on there. It's now worse in the UK than when the entire world's economic system came close to collapse after Lehman Brothers. The pound has effectively devalued to the levels of thirty years ago, ratings agencies have downgraded the UK's credit ratings, and there are companies left, right and centre issuing notices about reducing/delaying investment, relocation, and profit warnings.

Yet mention this to some Brexiters, and they start talking about "Project Fear", as if you're conjecturing. But this isn't a prediction any more, it's fact. It's actually happening. This isn't academic either. Already I know people whose companies have had orders cancelled, housing chains which have collapsed as buyers have pulled out. Pension funds are losing value hand over fist, and today some bank shares had to be suspended. It's not Project Fear. It's reality. It's a self-inflicted reality. And it's not just going to go away. This is only Day 2 in trading terms. We haven't even given notice of Article 50 being invoked yet, so you'd have to conjecture that half the market is still holding on in the vague hope that our Government (whoever that turns out to be) won't actually go ahead and pull the lever to open the trapdoor we've chosen to stand on. When we pull that lever, the consequences are going to be truly horrible.

Yet what do we get from those dishonest clowns who ran the Leave campaign? "Oh, we always said there'd be a few bumps in the road." Jesus. If this sounds panic-stricken, then yes, it probably is. There are people reading their pro-Brexit tabloids who still think this stuff is made up. They're like Monty Python's Black Knight claiming having both arms cut off was just a flesh wound!

It's not, people. It's happening. We'd better pray that someone emerges from the political pygmies currently in charge, and finds a way to apply the brakes to this train, or we are going off the cliff, and it's a long drop.

The Blairites would rather see the party destroyed than move back to the left of anything, it's farcical. Not to mention how it spits in the face of the wave of supporters who joined to back Corbyn as a real opposition leader instead of the Tory-lite brand of doing things that fooked the general election.

Hand on heart, if the Labour leadership was based on all Labour voters, rather than activists (i.e. millions rather than hundreds of thousands), do you think Corbyn would have got anywhere near the leadership? Because its those voters, plus swing voters who can make Labour electable.

The left as a stand alone offering hasn't won an election for 40 years, and the patterns of voting suggest that is not going to change, especially as Labour has managed to lose Scotland at least for the time being. Getting agitated and yelling that its just because people don't understand or have forgotten socialist ideals is what fringe activists have always done and it just doesn't work.

If like Corbyn you think that small bands of protestors are more important than actually getting elected, then sobeit. But right now Labour is looking more like a fringe protest movement than a credible opposition.

So, Angela Eagle has officially challenged Corbyn's leadership.

She makes Ed Milliband look like Dennis Skinner. This has been one of the worst coup attempts ever. If you plan to remove a leader then you have to have someone else with the party backing who can step straight in. Labour, and their brand of quasi toryism simply isn't what is going to get them elected anymore,and with the Chilcot report due to be published that will no doubt paint some of the Blairites plotting against Corbyn in a negative light, I don't see how they can get what they want without Corbyn resigning. Add in the fact that Corbyn still has the support of party members, as well as the majority of Labour voters (Angela Eagle's constituents even wrote to her telling to vote against the motion of no confidence in Corbyn, which she ignored), and trade unions. Add in the fact that prior to the Eu vote he was edging ahead in some of the polls, increased Labour's share of the vote, as well helped labour take control of 4 major cities, including London. It's the most self-destructive coup in modern times. The labour MPs are criticizing Corbyn for supposedly failing to unite the party, but the fact is all they would have to do unite the party would to accept the mandate the party has been given, and back their democratically elected leader.
The fact is these are unprecedented political times, and populism on both sides of the political spectrum is what's galvanizing voters. Neoliberal centreism that tries to be everything to everyone, but in turn offers nothing to nobody is all but dead, and "radical" policy ideas are needed to help defeat the weakening political establishment.

Spot on

I would take David Cameron as Labour leader right now if it meant an effective opposition to what's coming. I would take one entire half of the Tory party as opposition to the wing that currently has a mandate if that's what it takes.

The most important thing right now is an opposition. We've got a two year process to turn everything upside down to come, and the only opposition to that that counts will happen in Parliament. "Fsck the PLP" is a concept as destructive to progressive values as voting out in the first place.

I voted for Corbyn as leader. I do not expect him to win an election at any time. My real interest in him was dragging the Overton window to the left a little. I genuinely think he's a decent man and it's not personal ambition. He did get a mandate from the membership, and I do feel he's fighting to protect that mandate in their name.

But I also think that he's fscking . He's not a leader. He's a representative. They have never needed leadership more than at this moment in time. Individually everyone's cool but, as is true for all parties, the combined view of the membership is crazy.

Say you fight and fight and fight and then lose. Consider how you will react to that. If it's to thank the party for their trust, and then go spend an afternoon on the allotment whilst barely thinking about it then you're a fscking wastrel nugget completely unsuited to the demands of the role. Particularly in this unique moment in history.

Pretty much summed up what I've done and what I think, right up to and including the use of the term Overton Window.

Oddly enough, field work that I party to last year revealed that many people like David Cameron, but just wish (or wished then) that he was leader of the Labour Party.

People do like someone to be what they recognise as A Leader, who appears authoritative in a very conventional manner.

Not to go off on too much of a Cameron derail, but I have to say this given what I said above.

I think he's a detestable man in just about every respect. What he could have done is follow Sturgeon's suggestion (or perhaps even have thought of it himself), whereby the result would require the consent of each part of the union. This would have been consistent with his Unionist beliefs, and consistent with the political climate. "This requires the consent of the nation and all its constituent parts", or some such, because for the integrity of that nation it clearly did. Anyone who opposed such a stipulation would have been clearly anti-union, and good look selling that to the core of what is officially titled Conservative and Unionist Party. It's almost as if he put as much effort as he could into being as shockingly and pig-fsckingly amateur as he could manage.

I would say he was the worst Prime Minister since Chamberlain, except that Chamberlain did not invent Hitler out of thin air.

However, he has had two moments that have impressed me. One was petulant, but correct and this week. He alluded a little to Leo Amery quoting Cromwell when he was trying to get Chamberlain to quit. "We need an opposition. For heaven's sake man, go" or something to that effect. Perhaps he held off [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway_Debate#Amery:_.22In_the_name_of_God.2C_go.21.22on the full Cromwell quote[/url because we're in the middle of fscking Ireland. Again.

The other moment though, THE positive Cameron moment as far as I'm concerned, genuinely stopped me in my tracks. No other Prime Minister has ever done that, and I mean it quite literally. I remember I was cooking and pottering around in the kitchen, and something got ruined because I had to stop and listen.

It was a complete and unequivocal apology for Bloody Sunday. Proud is the wrong word in the circumstances, but I felt something akin to it when I heard that apology. He will always have my personal gratitude for that.

And my undying enmity for this.

(Also, he both looks and sounds like someone who was my boss for most of the last decade. That was a very odd experience right from the off and then never ceased being odd.)

And all I can say about Corbyn is "You're not wrong, but..."

I personally want Corbyn to win the new party election.

The Red Torys can then leave the Labour party and allow it to return to its working class roots. They can then form a new party.

The harsh reality is that many Labour MPS would have naturally joined the Conservative party in the 1960's.

Corbyn for all the media rhetoric of being a left winger is actually pretty centrist when looked at in the historical context.

The referendum has placed a bomb under the political status quo within the UK. Both Labour and Conservative parties are tearing each other apart.

My personal view is that if the Blairites leave labour to form Red Tory, then if someone like Gove gets elected tory leader, some of the more traditional tory elements would lean towards joining the red torys. This then further splits the political vote, and makes a further case for the UK to modernise its political system.