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Quote: Rock God X "All your post proves is that you are a bitter fan who wants the referee to be punished for the perceived wrong he has inflicted upon your team. Are you really suggesting that Steve Ganson, our most experienced official and controller of referees, would learn anything whatsoever (in refereeing terms) from being dropped into the lower leagues for two weeks? Really? It's worth noting that this Hull KR fans-led crusade to improve refereeing standards was quite absent after last years Etihad derby. Funny that. Why not admit that what you really want is revenge against the nasty man who 'robbed' your team in your most important game of the season?'"

No my post proves I'm having a debate.
Your post proves that you have taken the position of 'A Hull KR fans opinion=Automatically bad'.
I do wish you would take the specs off but clearly they are glued on so I guess we can give up hope on that.

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Quote: cod'ead "There will be referees capable of making thr step up to Superleague (and believe me, it is a BIG step up) but will they be any better than what's already there? There seems little point in trading in what you've got for an inferior model. A step towards increasing the number of refs available is to follow the Australian model of two on-field referees but I would imagine the biggest stumbling block would be cost. During the time I was officiating, I heard criticism of the cost of officials at every level of the game from Junior up to County level. Until the RFL and that in reality means the clubs, are prepared to properly fund the continued development of referees, we'll always struggle.

Local societies have always found it difficult tp recruit sufficient officials, this means that many games take place without an independent referee. Such a situation cannot assist player development, never mind referee development. Then if we look at the remuneration aspect it's hardly an attractive career path to chose, especially in the early days. Hull Society didn't charge at all for youth games, I doubt that has changed and it wasn't unusual to be appointed to referee two consecutive games on a Sunday morning. I was fortunate in that I didn't need the money and could usually take time off work as and when required, I also had a fully-expensed company car so travel expenses for out of town games wasn't a problem. It wasn't unusual for a rugby week to consist ofOh I agree there is a massive shortage at the bottom end.
But with regard to SL and the championship we have a situation ATM where we don't know if those in the championship are ready as SL seems to be a closed shop.
ALL I'm saying is that the current system isn't healthy for anyone.
We have a situation were a current SL ref is safe to plod on without the real need to try and improve his game and refs in the championship may as well not bother as they have nowhere to go if they do improve.

As a point can anyone remember the last time a ref was demoted permenatly and replaced by a championship(or whatever it was called) ref. The only time refs go up is when a SL ref retires, goes back to the NRL or we expand to 14 teams.

Before anyone bleats about the poor little lambs losing their jobs remind me again what happens when a better player arrives that makes a SL player no longer required in SL. Stuart Littler(Sorry Stuart) and the likes can answer that.

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[i:10za56ci]Hold on to me baby, his bony hands will do you no harm It said in the cards, we lost our souls to the Nameless One[/i:10za56ci]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6505.jpg

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Quote: Anakin Skywalker "Oh I agree there is a massive shortage at the bottom end.
But with regard to SL and the championship we have a situation ATM where we don't know if those in the championship are ready as SL seems to be a closed shop.
ALL I'm saying is that the current system isn't healthy for anyone.
We have a situation were a current SL ref is safe to plod on without the real need to try and improve his game and refs in the championship may as well not bother as they have nowhere to go if they do improve.'"

Roby, Hicks, and Child were all refs in the Championship before becoming SL refs, so I don't think the 'closed shop' accusation stands up. The issue may be more that now SL refs are full time it's more complicated to promote a part-time ref who might very well not want to leave his 'day job'.

I agree something needs to be done to increase the supply and competence of officials coming through from the lower leagues so that the current SL incumbents feel under real pressure to perform, but that's been the case for many years and nobody seems to have the first clue how to make it happen. Cummins' biggest failing as controller of referees IMO.

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Quote: Kosh "Roby, Hicks, and Child were all refs in the Championship before becoming SL refs, so I don't think the 'closed shop' accusation stands up. The issue may be more that now SL refs are full time it's more complicated to promote a part-time ref who might very well not want to leave his 'day job'.

I agree something needs to be done to increase the supply and competence of officials coming through from the lower leagues so that the current SL incumbents feel under real pressure to perform, but that's been the case for many years and nobody seems to have the first clue how to make it happen. Cummins' biggest failing as controller of referees IMO.'"

That is my point though as 3 have come up but Smith, Ganson and Klein have 'gone', not demoted but for whatever reason no longer working as an on field ref in the UK. That is a closed shop IMHO.

It was a serious question can anyone remember the last SL ref to be demoted and replaced permanently? I'm struggling to think of one and that includes before they went full time.

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Quote: Anakin Skywalker "That is my point though as 3 have come up but Smith, Ganson and Klein have 'gone', not demoted but for whatever reason no longer working as an on field ref in the UK. That is a closed shop IMHO.

It was a serious question can anyone remember the last SL ref to be demoted and replaced permanently? I'm struggling to think of one and that includes before they went full time.'"

All three who came up had had the odd gig in SL when an incumbent SL ref got demoted for a game or two. Klein certainly got dropped once or twice and I think even Ganson did once. Alibert has been conspicuously absent for much of this season although he is reffing us against Salford this week.

Temporary demotions [ido[/i happen. They just need to happen more regularly. But the issue with part time vs full time makes it more difficult now than it used to be.

The larger issues, as I said elsewhere, are availability and training. I don't believe that any ref goes onto the field intending to cock up, so disciplinary demotions are only of use if coupled with training to rectify shortcomings.

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One simple, small thing, that might encourage more people to aspire to the role of referee, IMO, is to not to give them kit that would garish at a Brazilian Carnival. Lime green and cerise, with respectively, yellow and blue check.

And that ref cam makes them look like partially assimilated Borg.

Okay, refs are maybe never going to be 'cool', but going out of our way to make them look idiots isn't going to inspire respect.

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If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Frederick Douglas:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_30596.jpg



Yes, that's definitely it.

I did all my referees qualifications and when Big Nige gave me my kit I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

If I wanted to go around looking like a scouser on a day trip to Blackpool I'd be shopping at TK Max.

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Quote: Kosh "All three who came up had had the odd gig in SL when an incumbent SL ref got demoted for a game or two. Klein certainly got dropped once or twice and I think even Ganson did once. Alibert has been conspicuously absent for much of this season although he is reffing us against Salford this week.

Temporary demotions [ido[/i happen. They just need to happen more regularly. But the issue with part time vs full time makes it more difficult now than it used to be.

The larger issues, as I said elsewhere, are availability and training. I don't believe that any ref goes onto the field intending to cock up, so disciplinary demotions are only of use if coupled with training to rectify shortcomings.'"
Oh temp demotions happen but at no point has a ref in SL been demoted and one from the lower league taken his place permanently in SL history (Unless someone can think of one).

This must be for 1 of 2 reasons surely.
1 There has never been a ref in the league below better than the worst in SL which is hard to believe in just short of 18 years.
Or.
2 Slap's on the wrist aside a SL ref is certain he can retain his SL status even if he power slams a player or tries to garrote a lino icon_wink.gif .

This is my point as whilst a SL ref is so certain he is safe he subconsciously won't push himself because nobody would. The complete lack of pressure from below isn't healthy.

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Quote: Anakin Skywalker "No my post proves I'm having a debate.
Your post proves that you have taken the position of 'A Hull KR fans opinion

I don't think your opinion is laughable because you're a Rovers fan, I think it's laughable because it's laughable. And I would think exactly the same if you were the fan of any other club whose coach and supporters spent as much time whining about refs as your lot.

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Quote: Rock God X "I don't think your opinion is laughable because you're a Rovers fan, I think it's laughable because it's laughable. And I would think exactly the same if you were the fan of any other club whose coach and supporters spent as much time whining about refs as your lot.'"
You are aware I'm not Craig Sandercock or those other supporters right?
How about you actually ignore them and join the debate.

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The older I get, the better I was Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator." cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan:2051.jpg



Quote: Anakin Skywalker "

This is my point as whilst a SL ref is so certain he is safe he subconsciously won't push himself because nobody would. The complete lack of pressure from below isn't healthy.'"


I'd say your point would be wrong then, or maybe gives more insight into your personal approach the job.

The RFL directly employ the referees, they are on Red Hall's payroll and as such are covered by UK and EU employment law. I think you'd find it extremely difficult rocking up to a tribunal with "he was crap" as a reason for dismissal

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Quote: Anakin Skywalker "You are aware I'm not Craig Sandercock or those other supporters right?
How about you actually ignore them and join the debate.'"


You might not be them, but the rhetoric sounds eerily similar. It's amazing how fans of clubs who have had a few calls go against them want a 'debate' about refereeing standards, and yet when they get a few in their favour they go strangely quiet.

The standards of officiating in RL are no better or no worse than in any other team sport. Humans make the decisions, so there will always be errors. The sooner everyone accepts that and stops bleating when their team cops for a dodgy call, the better. The constant griping about refs in both football and rugby is bordering on pathetic.

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Quote: cod'ead "I'd say your point would be wrong then, or maybe gives more insight into your personal approach the job.

The RFL directly employ the referees, they are on Red Hall's payroll and as such are covered by UK and EU employment law. I think you'd find it extremely difficult rocking up to a tribunal with "he was crap" as a reason for dismissal'"
So folks don't get comfy when they know their job is safe then?

I'm not sure I mentioned them being dismissed. In fact I didn't. I did mention a demotion however which could easily be covered if the wording of the employment contract.

It looks like your arguement here is that because they are fulltime that means they can never be demoted no matter how 'crap' they are.

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Quote: Rock God X "You might not be them, but the rhetoric sounds eerily similar.'"
Because you want it to.
Quote: Rock God X "It's amazing how fans of clubs who have had a few calls go against them want a 'debate' about refereeing standards, and yet when they get a few in their favour they go strangely quiet.'"
I have in the past made this very point myself.
Quote: Rock God X "

The standards of officiating in RL are no better or no worse than in any other team sport. Humans make the decisions, so there will always be errors. The sooner everyone accepts that and stops bleating when their team cops for a dodgy call, the better. The constant griping about refs in both football and rugby is bordering on pathetic.'"
I'll ask you a question if you don't mind.
Should we have the best refs in the top league or just those that happen to be in the SL spots ATM. That is my whole point.

We seem to have no method for swapping out a ref who isn't making the grade for one that is.

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The older I get, the better I was Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator." cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan:2051.jpg



Quote: Anakin Skywalker "So folks don't get comfy when they know their job is safe then?

I'm not sure I mentioned them being dismissed. In fact I didn't. I did mention a demotion however which could easily be covered if the wording of the employment contract.

It looks like your arguement here is that because they are fulltime that means they can never be demoted no matter how 'crap' they are.'"


So we have seven full-time referees and you decide to demote one.

Where is he demoted to?

Is the demotion temporary or permanent?

What happens to his salary package?

What salary package will the promoted referee be on?

What happens to the promoted referee if it's found that he is no better, or possibly worse than the demoted ref?

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