I love that argument.

What have any team added to the comp based on this logic? And before u trot out the away fan line, very few teams take 1000+ anywhere so it almost becomes irrelevant.

It's not an argument it's an opinion.This is one of DGM s pet subjects and iv read many pages of people making a case for and against Catalans etc. After looking at it from every angle I see little positive in a french team/s even less in a Canadian.I wasn't going to trot out any statements about fans etc as claims and counter claims can be made. It's my view simple as that. If I'm wrong and down the road these teams thrive then so be it and I don't have a problem with posters who think it's a great idea.It looks like either outcome we are going to find out soon enough

Catalans are a funny one.

They get decent crowds, they bring through a lot of youngsters, they have decent sponsors & commercial dept (their own broadcasting deal for instance) and they attract some top quality players to the competition.

Where they fall down is, for the most part since 2006 they've been plagued by poor coaching, which probably won't get much better under McBanana, and also a mis-management of the cap by paying the home-grown lads peanuts. That's why we currently see so many Frenchmen playing elsewhere.

A lot of people cite a reason for the inclusion of Catalans was to improve the French national side. This wasn't so. It was hoped that an effect of Catalans being in SL would be an improved French side, but Catalans are competing with everyone else, and shouldn't be held responsible for a poor French national team (who again have suffered from poor coaching, including rugby league luminaries like Goulding & Agar). Toulouse should help in this regard by exposing more French lads to a higher standard.

The problem that has materialised with cities such as Toronto, Perpignan, Toulouse and London, all expansion clubs, is their lack of 'monetary' contribution to the leagues they play in. It has been the focus of debate at Rovers - the lack of support from away teams at CP this season - and the above are notorious examples. Even Dewsbury brought more than Toulouse and London when added together!

Next season the Championship not only loses Hull KR but also the Bulls, and 'gains' Toronto and maybe Catalans. What hope for the traditional M62 corridor?

Referring back to my chat with the Dewsbury director, he explained their proximity isn't a problem because they have strong rivalries with Batley and Fev, and even cross support between the three clubs. The tri-derbies attracted attendances that Koukash would be happy with! For me this has a higher value USP than another overseas team.

He also added that the cash injection (from Rovers away support) would hopefully translate to improved performances on the pitch, in that it took away the existential angst of will the monthly wage bill be met. It was noticeable how Dewsbury hit form a few weeks after playing us. Coincidence? Maybe, but food for thought.

The "away fans argument" against expansion clubs is such a weak & lazy one Paul. I see it so often.

The crux of it is that clubs should not rely on income from away fans. Hull & Rovers certainly don't. Away fan income is effectively a bonus because it's so difficult to accurately forecast.

Particularly in this current league structure whereby a club isn't entirely sure who they'll be playing next year and the year after due to P&R. You single out expansion clubs, but what if Salford or Huddersfield were to be relegated to the Championship & a club like Barrow promoted instead - it'd hardly swell the away fan income would it?

For some reason amongst certain sections of RL fans, there's an obsession to discuss away fan numbers.

Clubs relying on away fan numbers like Dewsbury (to stick with your example) have to have a serious look at themselves, at their commercial strategy & at their business model. Generate new revenue streams, work to increase home fan numbers, go out & attract board-level investment etc. For instance, if Rovers took 2,500 to Dewsbury (I don't know the actual number), then Dewsbury only need to increase their average home fans by 250ish to offset this "loss". These attitudes of self pity & fear of anything new are what holds the sport back.

With regards to their "monetary contribution", you have to think a little bigger than away fans. With a larger viewership, larger attendances, closer proximity to centres with large corporates & potential new fan bases, a larger geographical footprint and more media attention - comes larger sponsorship deals, larger broadcast deals etc.

Would Superleague be a bigger "brand" with Toulouse & Toronto than it would with Dewsbury & Featherstone - of course it would! And it's that increase in brand perception that brings with it increase broadcast, sponsor & corporate revenue into the sport.

I've not seen one article on Dewsbury this season, very little on social media from them, & not even a thread on the Virtual Terrace . Compare that to the world wide attention Toronto have brought to Rugby League this year and you'll get a sense of what I mean.

I'm still not overly convinced away support is a valid criteria for inclusion or not when deciding on who's in and who isn't.

We were a one off last year, one that I don't think would have been repeated if we'd stayed down. So that can realistically be discounted from the argument. So then we are talking around 50 - 250 (max) people traveling in the championship and 100 - 1000 travelling in SL, a lot less if its a Thursday / Friday night match.

Yes the boost we gave a few championship teams was good but it wouldn't be sustained and the 'traditional' clubs wouldn't offer the same return, or even a noticable return.

The best RL can hope for is a raised profile and external cash, maybe the expansion clubs offer this.

The last Dewsbury v Batley derby attracted less than a thousand people these sort of clubs are at there level so if the game is to grow you go to the big cities

The bulk of RL money now comes from the Sky deal, their business is based on subscribers, so ask yourself who are likely to get them to put more in the TV deal, Dewsbury, Batley or London and Toronto, its all about viewers not traveling fans.

A bit like your council.liberals took this city forward then voted out because of national politics.then Brady geraghty and Co drag us back to the 70s whilst claiming credit for Siemens freedom etc. Set of canutes

You are some piece of work, the Lib Dems spent the £170m of KC shares money and what did they build? nothing. Labour secure Siemens when we put £5m towards the infrastructure, check your history the freedom festival was Colin Inglis's idea, look around you we built the KC, the North Stand for Rovers, we have the lowest unemployment ever in the City, the fastest growing wages in the U.K., the City Centre regenerated, the Arena, the Cruise line Terminal not forgetting the City of Culture, and you think they took us forward and we've gone backwards under Labour. YOU ARE DONALD TRUMP AND I CLAIM MY £5.

Not much spin there then? I suspect you have used that rant before? Working and living in Hull I have seen a decline since labour unexpectedly got back in.Wrong place for a ding Dong about labour dinosaurs but fair play to you.live long and prosper

Looks like we can add politics to the long list of topics Craig knows nothing about.

I know plenty thanks. I listen to people and I form my own views on rugby and life in general .As it's a rugby forum I won't elaborate on other things and I hear Mr Webbo had a rough day with the unions storming the guildhall.Surely not ?

I'd love to read some of your balanced and informative opinions over on the sin bin Craig. Only before 7pm though, we know what happens after that time

Iv not read that section. I will take look