No I'm not. Perhaps you missed the bit where I said that IMO Doncaster should be named champions. My problem is with the RFL not Doncaster.

And you are right to have a gripe with the RFL. The franchise system dampens the kudos/prestige/meaning of winning anything in Rugby League. So does the play-off system. So does the constant reconfiguring of the lower leagues. That's not to mention the 4 team promotion debacle this season.

The lower league teams generally need more games at a consistent level of competition (for gate money amongst other things). This deal where the winners get all of the prize money is also a bit daft to be honest.

All of this is partly the result of the expansionist regime (which I support in general). But teams like the Skolars, Welsh clubs, need something meaningful to play for on a regular basis and not fast tracking. At the moment they don't realistically have this because a 'traditional' club will win the lower leagues 9/10 (and apparently get all the prize money).

but these clubs had 'something meaningful to play for' that being the same as Donny etc and that being, good enough to win promotion - the table doesn't lie over the season - Donny is probably a 'traditional' club but who have never had success like this so bang goes your theory - they have got to the top of the table, whether you want to call them 'champions' or not with good management, excellent coaching, good performances and great backing from the faithful fans - Donny have shown that that things can be turned around just like Leigh did a few years back
The lower league teams will get more games at a 'consistent level' which will hopefully see many of the one-sided games diminish
Give the system time to work, or not and then judge maybe ?

meanwhile give praise where it's due...

OK. I lost count of the amount of cliches in that post to be honest. You are also countering an argument I never made (that a non 'traditional' club couldn't win one of the lower leagues: Didn't Gateshead win the league a few years back?)

If you think the way the leagues have been structured and changed over the last 10 years has added meaning to winning a competition then make your case...

If you think the lower league clubs get enough competitive first team fixtures then make your case...

If you think Skolars and the Welsh clubs will be regularly competing for something meaningful over the next 20 years then make your case...

For mine, the RFL are damned if they do. That's my point. I don't honestly believe this will be the last time the leagues are reconfigured in the near future. They should stop trying to micro-manage the leagues to fit what would be better geographically.

In the long run a consistent league structure is the only way to build expansion teams.

Oh and on your point about Doncaster never seeing success. It could be argued that over the last 12/13 years we have in fact been a relatively successful team. Challenge cup 1/4 finals. Regularly competing in second league play-offs, puffers cup final, two promotions, south Yorkshire cup .... the list goes on.

I would agree with Sandbag that in the scheme of the lower leagues - our recent past (albeit boom and bust) has actually been more suucessful than the majority of those in our league and some of those above.

The fact that we have also played in the top flight at one point on our own merit is something that a large percentage of the clubs in our league and above have yet to do...

The likes of the Welsh and Gateshead clubs were essentially created for SL purposes. London Skolars are not a traditional club as London Broncos were in esscence Fulham (who always did ok prior at similar level to ourselves).

I think one of the points Sandbag was making was that the geography and number of games being played outside of Championship makes it hard to gain momentum, finances, and following. Add into the mix that the whole franchise system is mental as if it was so hot football would have been doing it way before us.....
The Dons have been fortunate in some ways that we have learnt from our mistakes, but I honestly cannot see all those in Div 2 or whatever it is going to be called finishing teh full season. (I hope I am wrong).

Some of the amateur teams I know of, prefer to be so as their is less drain on resources and in reality the decent amateur sides would compete with the majority of the divsion that will be formed.

If I was a Fev or Fax fan I would be completely dissolusioned by now, Widnes have shown very little and have a financial history that is far from perfect.
Fev showed they can compete at a higher level but 3 League titles in a row and they will still be in same league next season....(And they are a genuine traditional club)

Sorry but the system / set up changes too frequently - how many other fans have to ask what the promotion criteria is at the start of each year.
Football Top 2 Promoted from Championship - next 4 play off for final spot.
The great thing with this is that it does mean the Blackpool's of this world get a shot - do ok and if run right still end up a better club whatever happens. It's not that long since Man City were a league below Premier...
Yes sugar daddies cause a false picture - but nobody in the Premier League is safe on name, stadium and status alone...


God knows if Bradford can struggle what hope do so many have?
The fact that SL signed into a sponsorship deal that secured no funding or revenue to the sport or League is absolute example of lacking business sense, added into the mix they bought one of the poorest SL grounds around, why couldn't that money have gone into development?.

I am happy with how our club is run and performs as each game is generally exciting - but ultimately any sportsman wants to play at the the highest level possible and if no promotion exists that knocks some opportunities out of the window and can make team retention and recruitment difficult.

I would love to know how many Champ and Champ 1 teams field a second team in any shape or form?
Where is the expansion and sustainability in that?

It would just be nice to go through 5 seasons plus with some consistency.

As always IMO.

OK Derwent perhaps I was being a bit cruel, but after 61 years of trying I think we can gloat a bit.

Why the expansionist model that the RFL have been obsessed with for far too long with is so flawed is because the basic business model is not secure. A franchise works on the basis that the original company works, it has been tried out over a long time, it has a product that customers like and pay for. This creates profits, sufficient enough to make the founder think that the model might work else where. The founder then does research to look at is this viable. If this planning comes back positive then the founder decides to launch the option for new franchises to be created.

RFL please take a look at this very summary of what a franchise is.

To me only when our game is truly secure in the heartlands, should the POSSIBILITY of expansion be looked at. And only then.

For too long we have been trying to catch up with Australia. Australia is not obsessed with expansion of the game. When this was tried during the Super League/ ARL era, this caused disaster and nearly ruined the game.

The Australians excel in having a small number of teams which are run very well. They each have incredible youth policies, marketing and commercial departments, and create a real buzz in the areas in which they are based.

As we have seen with the whole Bradford debacle, when a supposed catgeory B Super league, safe team goes into administration then there are major problems with the game.

That is why I think it is was to expand into areas which have no interest in rugby league at all. Concentrate on the herartland, get that right first.

Let us not forget the case FOR expansion which is, basically, Les Catalans. That part of France could become a heartland in the next few decades quite easily, and folk would never believe it wasn't.

I would prefer less commercialisation in rugby league - clubs built less on money making principles but more upon the values of the sport. The salary cap is a good system (compared to the alternative of inflated wages in football) but if clubs like Bradford are going bust there must be some holes in it (I don't really know the ins and outs at Bradford). I would control foreign ownership of clubs (which basically distorts everything in football) and I support the RFL owning assets in clubs and actively intervening when clubs go bust.

Basically, if player wages and asset costs can be managed (mostly by the RFL) the 'heartlands' will be maintained in a pretty constant state.

I'm sorry but the RFL hardly have a good track record as regards expansion etc. Gateshead and Sheffield for instance, the original clubs were asset stripped to shore up Hull sharks and Huddersfield, to their eternal credit both clubs reformed. Paris were first, when that didn't work Catalans came in,London broncos have had that many identities i can't even take them seriously . The sport is not in a good position, why try to expand ,when what you already have is struggling. There is only so much finance available at the moment, can't see the point in spreading it thinner on something that has been tried and is seemingly ,at the moment , unachievable .

I don't think Catalan are a good example. The team is propped up with Aussies and Kiwis. The smattering of French players in there has not helped to increase the standard of the French international side.

Surely Catalan would be better served playing in a stronger French elite league. France RL desperately needs a higher standard top league. Come to think of it so does the UK.

Good debate. Looking at the wreckage of tried and failed expansion clubs over the years, it's hard to make an argument in favour. Then of course there was Mansfield Marksman, Kent/Southend/Folkestone Invicta, Carlisle Border Raiders, Blackpool and Bridgend ( however, at least here there has been a spin-off of the North and South Wales teams). Expansion can work - the amateur game has proved that, but I believe, unless and until the game gets a foothold in schools, circumventing Rugby Union, we have little hope ( I don't see that happening any time soon). Better to make sure that we support and develop the teams we already have than to spread ourselves too thinly in my opinion.

On a separate point, as I've said before, 18 games in a season is too few. It does not allow you to gain momentum attendance-wise when there are yawning gaps in the schedules. Am so glad we have been promoted, as at least next season we will be getting another four home games which will help greatly and, of course, the added bonus of getting local derbies back! Good times. I'm still looking at this thread title and having to pinch myself!

the present Catalan side is represented in the french league with their reserve club (UTC) - the current Catalan Dragons squad contains 19 french qualified players who have played for the first team in the SL this season which isn't bad and hardly 'propped up with aussies and kiwis' as you suggest but I agree the international team hasn't progressed much and won't until another french SL team emerges and even then they will never compete with the likes of the England team with such a huge professional pool to choose from