So then tell me the advantages of hock being here?

I was quite pleased that winterstein was not playing on Monday. Always rated him at wakefield ,just was not given the time to develop.

I would agree not as good as hock at his best , but not as bad as his worst either.

Reason I said Widnes were a poor team is that v Wakey they missed 33 tackles.
That's poor.
I reallly would like Widnes to do better but expecting these same players to improve their game year on year I think is beyond the majority of them.
The club have to bring in better quality players if they want to become a middle/top of the table club.
I do worry for the Vikings if the vote goes through to reduce SL ro 12 clubs. At present it's London and one other to drop out. Who that other one will be I don't know, I just hope it isn't Widnes.
Salford will be far better next year. So will Castleford. Wakefield are vulnerable but do have the knack of pulling out wins v their nearest rivals.

I agree. There will possibly be 4 teams getting the chop next year as it appears Toulouse are coming in, possibly a championship team too. I actually fear for us as I cannot see the board spending money to sign four or five quality players on our crowds.

Hock has been a massive dissapointment for Widnes this season, he has spent too long suspended for a start and then with the Wigan games taken into account he just hasnt played enough for a player who hasnt exactly had any massive injuries to keep him out.

Then we get to his game's, he started well but seems to have lost interest in a big way generally running pretty meekly into the line 90% of the time. And when he does break the tackle he throws a shocker of an offload, and i know people will say we have to back him up but we teach kids at the earliest ages to keep hold if you are in no position to throw a decent pass.

Then most of the time when he does kick into action ( late against wakey, and Leeds most recently) the game is pretty much already lost. Hock will look great in a great team, in a distinctly average team like ours he is a massive liabilty, we cant defend set after set when Hock puts in late shots, or shoulder charges etc, Teams like Wigan can.

Hardman what makes you think that the rfl will cut 4 teams to let a championship team and toulouse in?
None of the championship sides meet the franchise criteria so really none of the current SL side should be cut

With regards to toulouse never say never but how can you let a side that doesnt get decent crowds,ok they have a backer but admitting them to SL will be another gamble like letting in paris,gateshead and crusaders

Just the noises coming out of Toulouse that they think they will be in. Sounds as if though a championship club won't be promoted that potentially means 3 clubs could be relegated. Looks like it may be us, Cas and London to lose out.

They've stated that 2 teams will be relegated to take the league down to 12 so unless they're bullting, that sort of rules out 3 being relegated.

I think if we can come to some arrangement with Hock to sever his contract it would probably be for the best for both parties.

What are we really getting by having him here for the rest of the season? An undoubtedly talented player who for whatever reason isn't performing at not only to the level expected of him but also of other players in the team of a lower standing and maybe more importantly on a lower wage.

What's he getting? To be the go to guy when the game's lost in a team that struggle hugely away from home but at home have some pretty decent games against bigger clubs. At this stage of his career even with the drugs ban it's probably not where he saw himself given his own talents.

Next year we'll have Tickle and be much better for it provided he stays clear of injury. Whilst Hock may be the better player given the players around him he looks a bit of a show pony, put him in a good team and he'll be a very good player. Tickle fits us better, every team needs a player like him, I don't mean that to denigrate him I think he's a great player I just think he's more solid than flashy which given our low position in the table might be better for us.

Jesus Christ even if he's not playing world class he's easily one of our most dangerous players on the park!!! He was getting slated around me at Bradford despite him having a direct / indirect role in the majority of our scores!!!

Would you lot rather a second row of Leuluai and Lawton??? Give me strength. Demand top players get them and criticise their every nice and want them released... Can't win!!!

He may be world class but a widnes he has been e apart from the odd moment in certain games.....the guy has been a liability in more ways than one.........but from your posting record on here and tiw i expect nothing
but blinkered opinions from you!

How cute...

He's won us more than he's lost us IMO. And I'd much rather see Hock knocking on trying to offload in attack than Leuluai dropping a dolly trying to clear our lines.

You also can't really moan about the length of ban he got post Workington yet then call him a liability for it. I'd still rather have him than not by FAR!

The Hock or Tickle debate could be one but in really it's not as we have Hock for 2013 and Tickle from 2014.

Brown was the one getting pelters from earlier losses. When you look at it it's actually players like Phelps and Allen who have missed 'simple' tackles in games that have cost us points!

Blaming Hock is easy an fine if that's what you want to do but suggesting we should pay him off is one of the most ludicrous things I've ever read, simple as that!

He's won us more than he's lost us IMO..............That comment is laughable,he has played well for ten minutes here and there in certain games and had a stormer against dire but he has'nt been a big enough influence in any games to say he's actually won us games.

It's easy to forget who would be replacing him in the side in most games.

Maybe winning games alone is stretching but major point is people acting like he's costing points I.e. losing us games! Which is far harde a statement to attach anything too! You don't get many back rowers involved in as many scores as Hock is. Passing wise haven't seen any better.