Not a dig at Clarke but I genuinely think if we had a more sprightly acting half-back like McShane then we would see more success from Hock offloads. Someone needs to get with him instead of ambling up.

A bit harsh there Ted, but I generally get your drift. We are a fairly ordinary side, who can raise our game when we are near to full strength, but struggle when we have too many missing. If we were more dangerous across the field the opposition wouldn't be able to concentrate on Hock/Hanbury/Brown and close us down.

Last night was a classic example, no Mellor who has been a real unsung hero this season on the right (OK more readily acknowledged now) and all Wakey had to do was reinforce their right hand side, which still produced 3 tries for us and let another go begging with a poor pass. We dont seem to have the "in game" nous to switch our play. Ironically Tickle may end up a better all round player for us next season (assuming he stays fit) as he is likely to play more games and he is more of a grafter.

I have loved us having Hock and there was massive excitement early on and he has still scored a fair few tries for us, but bearing in mind he couldn't play against Wigan and his various suspensions that were more to do with who he was and his history than to what he actually did and he has missed a lot of games.

I think our whole game would improve not just Hock's play, its too much to expect Clarke to play 80 minutes and he isn't the nippiest of players even when playing 20 minutes each half, but his overall leadership and general play has improved massively. I realise that McShane was never going to be an option once Lunt went back to Huddersfield, but we should have been looking for someone with a similar style of play.

We have all been going on about Dwyer from Warrington who fits that bill. OK we may not think Gore is ready yet but I think a few more minutes of game time might have been worthwhile. I dont know if there is the remotest chance of bringing Dwyer in until the end of the season but if there is we should grab it, as we certainly need a lift after a few below par performances!

Hock has been on twitter apparently saying there was a good scrap in the crowd on monday.......the guy is a in idiot and a penalty machine and a liability on and off the pitch,wish he would just go aus now the man hasnt any brain cells.

It wasn't him...

must be bad info then.........the guy us still a clown and as a club we have gained nothing him being here

Disagree... A lot.

So then tell me the advantages of hock being here?

I was quite pleased that winterstein was not playing on Monday. Always rated him at wakefield ,just was not given the time to develop.

I would agree not as good as hock at his best , but not as bad as his worst either.

Reason I said Widnes were a poor team is that v Wakey they missed 33 tackles.
That's poor.
I reallly would like Widnes to do better but expecting these same players to improve their game year on year I think is beyond the majority of them.
The club have to bring in better quality players if they want to become a middle/top of the table club.
I do worry for the Vikings if the vote goes through to reduce SL ro 12 clubs. At present it's London and one other to drop out. Who that other one will be I don't know, I just hope it isn't Widnes.
Salford will be far better next year. So will Castleford. Wakefield are vulnerable but do have the knack of pulling out wins v their nearest rivals.

I agree. There will possibly be 4 teams getting the chop next year as it appears Toulouse are coming in, possibly a championship team too. I actually fear for us as I cannot see the board spending money to sign four or five quality players on our crowds.

Hock has been a massive dissapointment for Widnes this season, he has spent too long suspended for a start and then with the Wigan games taken into account he just hasnt played enough for a player who hasnt exactly had any massive injuries to keep him out.

Then we get to his game's, he started well but seems to have lost interest in a big way generally running pretty meekly into the line 90% of the time. And when he does break the tackle he throws a shocker of an offload, and i know people will say we have to back him up but we teach kids at the earliest ages to keep hold if you are in no position to throw a decent pass.

Then most of the time when he does kick into action ( late against wakey, and Leeds most recently) the game is pretty much already lost. Hock will look great in a great team, in a distinctly average team like ours he is a massive liabilty, we cant defend set after set when Hock puts in late shots, or shoulder charges etc, Teams like Wigan can.

Hardman what makes you think that the rfl will cut 4 teams to let a championship team and toulouse in?
None of the championship sides meet the franchise criteria so really none of the current SL side should be cut

With regards to toulouse never say never but how can you let a side that doesnt get decent crowds,ok they have a backer but admitting them to SL will be another gamble like letting in paris,gateshead and crusaders

Just the noises coming out of Toulouse that they think they will be in. Sounds as if though a championship club won't be promoted that potentially means 3 clubs could be relegated. Looks like it may be us, Cas and London to lose out.

They've stated that 2 teams will be relegated to take the league down to 12 so unless they're bullting, that sort of rules out 3 being relegated.