Problem with Hock is he's playing out wide so he relies a lot on our other pack members providing the go forward, which they don't have.

being a bit unfair but I do see your point. When Hock was at Wigan you would often see him running over players , but that was after the pack had sucked them all in and left him one on one with someone half his side. A bit like what Wakefield did tonight with Big Ali. Also due to his presence in the team he seems to be the go to man , whether the ball is on or not. On two or maybe three occasions tonight Brown gave him a short ball and got him murdered when the btter ball was out the back ? So maybe he hasnt made the sort of impact we wanted but he would be my first name of the sheet every week. Or would you prefer Big Frank ??

Frank Wintersteine has played better than Hock in my opinion.Too many errors and offloads that are not on to be honest.

I thought Hock put in a good shift v Wakey but you can see he is clearly unhappy at this club. His performances have deteriorated week after week even though you can see he is trying.

Not sure he's unhappy at the club but I always feel and I have said this on numerous occasions he's better when he's in field more as he's the one forward that runs onto the ball with any purpose apart from maybe Joseph.

Sadly the problem is that he can be isolated by the opposition, no matter how hard he runs the opposition gang up on his side of the field and whilst he might scatter one or even two players out of the way, he isn't going to get through 3 or 4. The rest of the side seem to just sit back and watch him do it with nobody backing him up. We just haven't learned how to get the best out of him.

Clearly Brown has a good rapport with him and can put him through gaps where he usually scores unopposed, but not since that fantastic early try against Hull where he ran in fast and hard and Phelps got himself on the end of a beautiful offload have we backed him up properly when charging into the traffic. I would have thought Hanbury would be the perfect player to be hunting Hock's breaks, although I know he is a marked man now and gets well covered with or without the ball!

Mind you last night wasn't about anything fancy it was about holding on to the ball and playing out our sets, basically that was all we needed to do and couldn't do it! Hope Mellor is only missing for the one game!

It's a good point about Winterstein.
Not going to suggest his best is as good as Hock, but his worst isn't as bad! I do think Frank will improve but really the argument should be Winterstein or Lulu?

Am I right in thinking that Tickle will slot in for Hock next year?

Hock is an excellent player in a good team.
In a poor team he is just ordinary.
Widnes at the moment are a poor team. To improve this they need to bring in a number of better quality players.

Not a dig at Clarke but I genuinely think if we had a more sprightly acting half-back like McShane then we would see more success from Hock offloads. Someone needs to get with him instead of ambling up.

A bit harsh there Ted, but I generally get your drift. We are a fairly ordinary side, who can raise our game when we are near to full strength, but struggle when we have too many missing. If we were more dangerous across the field the opposition wouldn't be able to concentrate on Hock/Hanbury/Brown and close us down.

Last night was a classic example, no Mellor who has been a real unsung hero this season on the right (OK more readily acknowledged now) and all Wakey had to do was reinforce their right hand side, which still produced 3 tries for us and let another go begging with a poor pass. We dont seem to have the "in game" nous to switch our play. Ironically Tickle may end up a better all round player for us next season (assuming he stays fit) as he is likely to play more games and he is more of a grafter.

I have loved us having Hock and there was massive excitement early on and he has still scored a fair few tries for us, but bearing in mind he couldn't play against Wigan and his various suspensions that were more to do with who he was and his history than to what he actually did and he has missed a lot of games.

I think our whole game would improve not just Hock's play, its too much to expect Clarke to play 80 minutes and he isn't the nippiest of players even when playing 20 minutes each half, but his overall leadership and general play has improved massively. I realise that McShane was never going to be an option once Lunt went back to Huddersfield, but we should have been looking for someone with a similar style of play.

We have all been going on about Dwyer from Warrington who fits that bill. OK we may not think Gore is ready yet but I think a few more minutes of game time might have been worthwhile. I dont know if there is the remotest chance of bringing Dwyer in until the end of the season but if there is we should grab it, as we certainly need a lift after a few below par performances!

Hock has been on twitter apparently saying there was a good scrap in the crowd on monday.......the guy is a in idiot and a penalty machine and a liability on and off the pitch,wish he would just go aus now the man hasnt any brain cells.

It wasn't him...

must be bad info then.........the guy us still a clown and as a club we have gained nothing him being here

Disagree... A lot.