Good points and I agree.

I'd love our crowds to increase but that is unlikely in my opinion mainly because of franchising. If we can keep them at a sustainable level then we provide a realistic alternative to a Wakefield or a Castleford if they don't get a new stadium. If we are at the same level then our bid is the same just without the fact that we went bust which realistically was their only justification for leaving us out.

The crowd was down and ST sales are down but on a positive note many of us thought with franchising crowds would quickly drop off. There are fans who have thrown their dummies out of the pram with RL and decided not to renew, they don't realise that harm they are doing to Widnes RL. Do they think that the RFL really cares that they are boycotting RL? It just gives them validation to leave us out next time.

Personally I think that Steve O got rid of McCormack so quickly partly because of this reason. There hasn't been much optimism in the pre-season and this is in part to do with the side Steve has assembled. We need a big name to get that buzz and optimism back and then we will find it easier to attract new fans and get fans coming back.

We're probably looking at around 2500 on Saturday. If we'd appointed Hanley I reckon that would've been approaching 4000.

Who are your rivals ?

On the pitch for 80 minutes they are the teams you will play this season

Off the pitch you mean the clubs that will be applying for SL

But if all the NL/Championship clubs take a 3 year or bust mentallity then we as a competition are as good as dead now

On the pitch , fine we compete with each other , off the pitch we collaborate or die

All the best

The thing is most fans still haven't and won't let it go. If they do they'll probably drift away from the game. This 3 year thing still allows people to hold on to a faint glimmer.

If we were made to accept that we would never see the top flight again like for instance Dewsbury, Batley or Hunslet then I think we'd see a massive drop in attendance.

Personally my interest would definitely be less.

Yes Starbug, my final statement was a selfish one. At the end of the day the main target for this club over the next three years will be to maintain the pole position for a Franchise that you yourself have admitted we are in.

I totally agree with the need for us to collaborate. I certainly did not mean that I hope our NL/Championship colleagues crowds reduce. Indeed healthy crowds throughout would only benefit Widnes' totals ultimately anyway. It certainly gave me no pleasure to note that no NRC crowd last weekend exceeded even 50% of the Widnes crowd, disappointing as we felt that was.

Initial indications are suggesting that the Franchise effect we all feared is happening and driving crowds down at our level. That is the real concern and one which we all need to work hard to reverse.

It don't matter about attendances if you are 'expansion' clubs though does it????
You can get hardly anybody there and the RFL don't bother a jot as long as you aint from a town on the M62 thats fine. Or have a crowd of freebies!
This is the NRC and some fans don't bother with them so the crowds are lower than League games.

Yes, but the club have decided to move from Sunday afternoon games and this has had an effect to my certain knowlege.
As long as I can get to a game of rugby league, I'm not too bothered who I watch. There are plenty of amateur teams in Widnes and during the summer there are Runcorn and Liverpool Buccaneers.

Well you have nailed your colours firmly to the mast there Doc and they ain't black and white.

Except when I'm watching West Bank Swans. Over 50,000 Widnesians can't be bothered watching Widnes so I don't see why I should be too bothered.

Doc has watched WIdnes home and away since around 1976, don't really see why he should justify himself to anyone.

But from his recent posts (on what is, after all, a Widnes RLFC supporters message board) it is clear that he has a number of issues with the current regime at Widnes and Rugby League in general. He is entitled to his opinions ( and I agree with him on many of his points) but the overall impression he gives is that his heart is no longer with the club and the sport so surely he DOES have to justify this on this type of board.

Doesn't need anyone sticking up for him either.I have followed Widnes for a similar ammount of time as Doc and therefore find it even more baffling how people can be fickle enough to just drop the club like a hot brick because of a change in home game days.I am totally opposed to Fri/Sat evening KO's myself but that won't stop me from supporting the team if I can get there,which I can.Judging by last nights attendance of 3000 it would seem we haven't lost many fans or we have gained just as many as has been lost.I don't see why the team should have to suffer anyway because of a decision made by the management.As for 50000 people not bothered about supporting the club,well you could say the same about Wigan- over 65000 people dont't bother with them and Warrington and Leeds and ST.Helens.Get down to a game Doc,you know it makes sense.Like you used to say yourself,you will only be wondering how they are doing if you aren't there.

I'll still be there for the occassional game mate but as you know, we've always gone as a family, but my lad can't get back home in time for Friday night games and in a few months my daughter will also be living away from home.
We met 'In Enemy Territory' last night in The Baltic Fleet and he told us it was a much better performance so that's good news.

Makes me laugh though,when people decide not to bother going to the games and then come on these forums and bore the ars off the rest of us with the reasons they have stopped.If you don't want to go then fine,don't go.You won't be missed.

Just over 3000 on Saturday not bad with even less away support than the week before

Except by you though. evidently.