FORUMS > Hull FC > Cutting our Cloth |
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| Been promised Jam tomorrow for that long we have realised tomorrow never comes.
Think the glory that was the KC Stadium has now become our millstone around our necks.
We sold the Boulevard for £280,000 less than Rovers got for the old Craven Park nearly 25 years earlier and it seems no caveats on the sale.
We need to build around the spine of the team with a younger replacement for Price [ HTW not be ready for another 2 years ]
Pearson will be disappointed come pass sales as he wants every one to BUY in to him but thinks nothing of the supporters views.
Me been going since 1950 but not going to get a pass next year ,roll up when I want and if not satisfied not bother .
Pearson does not get it merging the youth teams this in the long run will loose future support.
The games going backwards the RL can't or don't want to see what the fans see the bending over for certain teams on disciplinary matters.
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| Quote: Lang Park "Thank you for starting what is an excellent thread containing a lot of heartfelt and well written posts.
My own assessment of the situation is that AP enjoyed what was a modicum of success in his first spell at city (though it could be argued that it was through trial and error). The cash made from that was largely Peter Wilkinson's, and AP saw Hull FC as a chance to repeat the trick but with himself as the sole beneficiary.
Unfortunately for him he didn't do enough due diligence into what was needed to succeed in RL, and as a consequence overpaid for the club and had been playing catch-up ever since.
As you allude to he's wasted hundreds of thousands on big names and other such luxuries, when he would have been better spending it on solid foundations the club could have been built on for the next 10 years.
Always good at talking, he's wasted a long honeymoon period by consistently over promising and under delivering and now faces the fact that all his spending has brought little if any improvement from when he bought the club.
I agree totally that we will now be chasing the crowds down, lower investment
I think the point on the Leeds game is key. Our fairytale cup run in 2005 probably helped create an unrealistic sense of possibility in the context of today's competition. We went through 2006 marshalled superbly by Cooke and Horne at the top of their respective games but in the following decade IMO the financing and infrastructures at the top 3 (and maybe Warrington) have stepped on to the extent of being currently unassailable. Sure, if we were more successful over time we'd leverage better value from the cap. But the collective cost that we can afford to spend on first team and academy and coaching staff is dwarfed by what Wigan/Leeds/Saints can via both materially higher gates, more control over stadium income, and wealthier, RL-devotee boards.
I buy in part the argument that investing Pritchard's (for the sake of argument) salary into coaching would help somewhat, but to me it's a bit like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. The total income of the club is simply not enough to compete against the top 3 consistently as exemplified in the Leeds game when they had 6 out.
In this context, maybe 7th isn't that catastrophic, but simply a reflection of where we are and can expect (or hope, if reduced pass sales force first team cuts) to be.
The communication with fans from the club needs to treat us a little less patronisingly IMO. Gung-ho promises of Top 4 are pointless now. Some measured acknowledgement of mistakes made and re-calibrating our stated ambition would IMO engage fans more effectively than repeated bluster and borderline nonsense. We're grown up enough to face the truth. The top 3 have huge competitive advantage which we can't match at the moment. Let's have a bottom-up plan for recovery that's believable and medium term.
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| brilliant thread this!! with many well thought out,reasoned intelligent posts. I am hoping adam pearson will read them and really take into account these heartfelt opinions of people who at the end of the day just want our club to be the best it can be.I of course wont walk away as the "habit "has been with me for almost 60yrs now so I cant kick it !!?
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| Quote: carl_spackler "I agree, it's very close. When we've been good this year, we've been better than in 2013, but in 2013 we were better at getting over the line in the close ones. So overall, we've not made any (detectable) progress, but we've apparently spent a further fortune doing it. It just seems like so much good money being thrown after bad and still being spent unwisely'"
What do you define as a close one? Because in 2013 we managed to win 4 games by less than 10 points, that included the non event game away at Wigan after the Cup Final.
Which is also the same number of games we've won by the same margin this year.
When Gentle arrived he said that the one thing he wanted to do was narrow the gap between our best and worse performances. IMO it's been Radford that has achieved that this year.
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| Some great points made on this thread , Maybe it's time to see the club take out another fan survey . I could go a little way to re connect with the supporters .
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6505_1460484023.jpg [i:10za56ci]Hold on to me baby, his bony hands will do you no harm
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| Quote: Drew peacock "Lots of passionate posts on here and a great thread,for a start lee radford has taken us backwards'"
Actually that's open to debate. Last year was a definite backward step but this season has been on a par with Gentle's last season in charge and could - only could, mind - end up being better in terms of league position. Of course we have a better squad now, at least in key positions.
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7384_1394882426.png [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/14252202:io879g1y]2005 Challenge Cup[/url:io879g1y]
To reconcile respect with practicality, what is the optimum speed for a hearse?:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_7384.png |
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| Quote: B0NES "Some great points made on this thread , Maybe it's time to see the club take out another fan survey . I could go a little way to re connect with the supporters .'"
As long as James Rule doesn't organise it
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| Quote: *1865* "What do you define as a close one? Because in 2013 we managed to win 4 games by less than 10 points, that included the non event game away at Wigan after the Cup Final.
Which is also the same number of games we've won by the same margin this year.
When Gentle arrived he said that the one thing he wanted to do was narrow the gap between our best and worse performances. IMO it's been Radford that has achieved that this year.'"
you mean like last week against Wigan?
I wish people would stop having a pop at Gentle.Overall he was doing a good job.He had recognised he made a mistake going for a smaller mobile pack and started to rectify that with the signing of Paea.
He also had a lot of bad luck with player injuries yet we still finished sixth.
You may say some of the signings McRae/Gentle made cost the club money but the Wembley appearance put a lot of money back into the club which people conveniently forget.
The interesting thing about this thread is the number of posters who are at last seeing the limitations of Radford and feel money would be better spent on trying to attract a quality coach to the club.
I just think Pearson has lost the plot.if he thinks the signing of Pritchard will but bums on seats he is sadly mistaken.
maybe it will take pass sales to decline to around five thousand for the penny to drop.
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7384_1394882426.png [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/14252202:io879g1y]2005 Challenge Cup[/url:io879g1y]
To reconcile respect with practicality, what is the optimum speed for a hearse?:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_7384.png |
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| Quote: oud3pstander "Been promised Jam tomorrow for that long we have realised tomorrow never comes.'"
I said on Twitter the other day that if AP sets out that we will get jam tomorrow (with the usual "no guarantees" caveat), I'd be happy to wait if there was loads of jam and it lasted a while. I'm realistic enough to know that success isn't round the corner, so no more of this Top 4 stuff, just a sensible approach that takes the fans with him.
Mrs B's suggestion of an AP "State of the Nation" speech (with New Order soundtrack) is a must.
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| Quote: *1865* "What do you define as a close one? Because in 2013 we managed to win 4 games by less than 10 points, that included the non event game away at Wigan after the Cup Final.
Which is also the same number of games we've won by the same margin this year.
When Gentle arrived he said that the one thing he wanted to do was narrow the gap between our best and worse performances. IMO it's been Radford that has achieved that this year.'"
As a general rule, I'd say those games that are settled by a converted score or less. This year we've had 8 games that close, won 3 lost 5. In 2013 we had 10 games that close, won 5, drew 2, lost 3. I was thinking less about the number of tight games we've won and more about the percentage. In a close game, I feel less confident with this team.
And I totally agree that that was Gentle's biggest failing, I've said the same before. Taking out the Hudds extreme debacle and speaking more generally, I'm not convinced that Radford has done much better, though.
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| Quote: carl_spackler " However, the fact that last year an alleged small fortune was spent on getting rid of those players and replacing them and this year we're no better than we were with them, has me personally thinking that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. We have Gentle/McRae being ripped apart for signing expensive players who were supposedly average, yet Radford/Pearson spending a further fortune on getting rid of them and signing expensive replacements (whom we are told are better, but don't really get better results) to still be no better overall by the time those other players would have been on their way out of the club for free still seems to be a legacy of Gentle/McRae. It makes no sense.'"
This is the root cause of our problem -IMO.
When Powell took over Castleford, he never had the luxury of saying "Not my team" and improved existing players.
He lost Chase and Clark, two of his main pivots, and still maintained a top 8 finish.
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32641_1503834456.jpg The poor man's bonaire:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_32641.jpg |
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| Quote: Mrs Barista "I think the point on the Leeds game is key. Our fairytale cup run in 2005 probably helped create an unrealistic sense of possibility in the context of today's competition. We went through 2006 marshalled superbly by Cooke and Horne at the top of their respective games but in the following decade IMO the financing and infrastructures at the top 3 (and maybe Warrington) have stepped on to the extent of being currently unassailable. Sure, if we were more successful over time we'd leverage better value from the cap. But the collective cost that we can afford to spend on first team and academy and coaching staff is dwarfed by what Wigan/Leeds/Saints can via both materially higher gates, more control over stadium income, and wealthier, RL-devotee boards.
I buy in part the argument that investing Pritchard's (for the sake of argument) salary into coaching would help somewhat, but to me it's a bit like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. The total income of the club is simply not enough to compete against the top 3 consistently as exemplified in the Leeds game when they had 6 out.
In this context, maybe 7th isn't that catastrophic, but simply a reflection of where we are and can expect (or hope, if reduced pass sales force first team cuts) to be.
The communication with fans from the club needs to treat us a little less patronisingly IMO. Gung-ho promises of Top 4 are pointless now. Some measured acknowledgement of mistakes made and re-calibrating our stated ambition would IMO engage fans more effectively than repeated bluster and borderline nonsense. We're grown up enough to face the truth. The top 3 have huge competitive advantage which we can't match at the moment. Let's have a bottom-up plan for recovery that's believable and medium term.'"
I'd happily take a "guaranteed" 4th to 7th place spot each year from where we have been but the other thing we need to look at is why a couple of teams (cas and hudds) above us seem to be doing better with seemingly no better resources and no better playing squads IMO (If they have it's down to better recruitment as neither have star home grown players)
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| Quote: Diogenes "Many of our financial difficulties can be laid at Pearson's door. He paid too much for the club and didn't do his due diligence properly e.g. the EBT liability.
He appointed McRae and followed his advice resulting in average players being signed on lucrative contracts. When he saw through McRae he then decided to pay off those players before their contracts were up.
Pearson's personality is mercurial, even capricious. He speaks without thinking and makes decisions in haste.
He then sacked Gentle a year too early and gave his inexperienced and unproven assistant a 3 year contract. Radford is a genuine, honest, hardworking guy but he's just not up to it. I honestly believe the reason Radford hasn't been sacked is because Pearson can't afford to pay him off.
He bought the club believing he would make money out of it but has had to pump in more and more and I think he has now run out of money. I think he planned to sell it for a profit in about 5 years but now he couldn't give it away.
Other problems are not down to him. He bought the club as we were entering the biggest recession for generations and falling attendances can partly be attributed to the effects of this recession on an economically deprived, low wage area.
He also made a mistake by promising too much too soon. He should have under-promised and over-delivered. Instead of saying we would be a force in the game within 3 years or so he should have told us what a state the club was in due to years of under-investment and that it would be a long job to turn it around.
So in summary I believe our problems are down to the actions of the previous regime, Pearson's poor judgment and reliance on those he appointed to advise him and the state of the economy.
I will accept any criticism of the fans who have put their hands in their pockets year on year and have very right to criticise. If we have unrealistic expectations that is entirely the fault of the owner and the club's PR machine.
So where do we go from here? I think whatever happens in the next two months pass sales will be down. If we do really badly in the Super 8's then they will be very seriously down. Signing players won't change that. The only thing which might would be to appoint an experienced, proven, top class coach but I don't think that will happen. Next season will be another battle to scrape into the top 8.'"
Good post. I think that your assessment of pearson is spot on. He seems to me like someone who doesn't employ people who will question his judgement so just ends up with a stack of yes men. gentle didn't seem to fit that bracket to me so maybe that's why he went and maybe there was friction due to it beforehand. pearson's interview on Thursday was a prime example of how he behaves. He started off very calmly but when people started questioning him and saying things he didn't like he went off on a rant which I believe he thought justified his point.
On the point of employing a better quality coach, sticking 1k on the average gate would probably cover the additional cost on top of radford's salary which would be easily achievable IMO
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| Quote: weaver93 "This is the root cause of our problem -IMO.
When Powell took over Castleford, he never had the luxury of saying "Not my team" and improved existing players.
He lost Chase and Clark, two of his main pivots, and still maintained a top 8 finish.'"
this is because powell believes in his ability to get the best out of what he has, rather than simply buy new. i'm not at all sure radford can coach or manage a player to any degree. with our players it seems a face either fits or it doesn't
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| Quote: the artist "this is because powell believes in his ability to get the best out of what he has, rather than simply buy new. i'm not at all sure radford can coach or manage a player to any degree. with our players it seems a face either fits or it doesn't'"
Big and strong is all Radford knows.
What he forgets about is the importance of pace and flair which is usually what as a team we cannot cope with.
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