Ive watched Thormans stupid goal line kicks and cant defend them. I can understand why he does it because their outside defence has come up quickly thus stopping the long pass, he just doesnt execute the kicks well on occasions and his team mates dont seem to know what he is doing. The only issue i have is his execution of the play not his decision making in the situations youre mentioning.

The 5 drives and a kick is in our own half yes, in their half we go for 3 drives and 2 predictable tight in plays followed by a poor kick. I dont blame any of the players even if i expect more from some of them. The blame from me sits entirely with Agar/Sharp and their tactics.

Really have to disagree on that point. The tactics worked fine for the first 5 games of the season. Its the players application of the tactics that has led to the current situation. It might not be pretty but it can win games if executed properly. TBH that sort of attitude is possibly why the players think they can just go through the motions.

Or possibly the rest of SL now know our game plan, better than we do!

But both rely on the forwards giving them space to work in to produce their best. Berrigan can't run from dummy half with the speed of out ptb, so is also shafted by events beyond his control. His passing has been below par I'll admit, but to suggest Thorman's poor performances are because he is coached that way is not remotely accurate IMO. He doesn't have the passing game to spread it wide IMO, and the 1 thing he definitely is coached to be responsible for is our kicking game, which is still not up to scratch as far as I can see. He seems to make the decision to kick through on a whim, rather than what's going on around him.

As for inspiring your teammates I think that's irrelevant of being world class or not. Thorman was trumpeted as a great talker and organiser, I'd say that that role had at least as much responsibility to inspire the team as Berrigan, who seems to have been labelled as some sort of leadership figure based purely upon his playing abilities, and I'm not sure how that works, personally.

I'm just not on board with the seemingly 'he's $h1t, he can't help it' approach viewing him as less worthy of criticism, and palming it off onto coaches whilst feeling fine about ripping into those who are more capable. If anything, I view the fact that our coaches can't get the best out of a proven top-notch hooker as more evidence of their deficiencies than his.

Knowing a gameplan and stopping it are 2 different things. I agree its not pretty and its not what I would choose but it can be effective if everyone does their job properly which they clearly haven't for the last half a dozen games or so.

For me, that's one of the biggest problems with it. To stand a chance of winning the way we play you pretty much need all 17 players to put in a virtually flawless performance for 80 minutes. This is hard no matter how good the players are. Every team makes errors, but the likes of Saints and Leeds try those low percentage plays and pull them off often enough to cancel out theirs.

Once errors creep into our game we are then dependent upon our opponents making more than us to get back into it.

Manu to start from the bench!!!

I just don't buy into this 'All Agar's fault', its clear you don't rate him and have placed all the blame firmly at his door. I agree to an extent that he has to take responsibility for tactics and team spirit. However players also have to be able to movtivate themselves as professionals and be prepared to turn up and play. The best performance this season bar none was Bulls away where we played with enterprise and players pushed through holes and Thorman was truly outstanding and probably along with Manu the difference between the sides. So this is evidence that we can get it right, in fact we got it right a lot early on in the season, not always with great rugby but we were winning armwrestles against the likes of Wigan, Hudds and Celtic. Had we have been more ruthless we could have won all have those by more comfortable margins.

Had we have kicked our goals we would have beaten Cas, Quins was just an awful game and we were outplayed in the 2nd half. The CC game was strange as we scored good tries but again only played in fits and starts. The derby saw us start on the back foot from the kickoff which is hardly Agar's fault and then we could not get out of our half for a while, our best attacking play came from offloads and the second phase possession resulted in a try. Had we have turned up for the game we could have won it easily, Rovers did not play that well. Again is this the coach or the players or do they share the responsbility?

Saints we were blown away by a much better side and Wakey we lost the armwrestle in a game we should really have won.

Looking back I think Agar has made mistakesand should be encouraging more offloads from the forwards for the likes of Berro and Horne to utilise. He should also be telling Thorman to take a tackle instead of putting boot to ball when he has no options. However players also have to be held accountable, Tickle should not be kicking it dead etc.

It suits people to blame the coaches but the players have as much to answer for in my eyes.

Only if the opposition make no errors either. I agree its not a gameplan that wins anything, particularly over a long season, but it would have won us at least another 3 games this season with a bit more effort/enthusiasm from the players IMO. The biggest problem is that you very rarely win a game with those tactics if dont play well, whereas a better gameplan can win games when the team aren't performing.

Mine too. Agree 100%.

Snag is if some of the players don't have the basic quality to perform at an acceptable level week in and week out then it becomes very difficult for a coach. Peter Sharp would tell you the same. We've certainly missed our injured/visaless internationals this year. We have guys who cant catch and cant pass to the required level often enough. Shouldn't be required to be coached at this level - is Potter coaching Gidley, Pryce and Long how to catch and pass ? - I think not.

A mixture of poor recruitment (Sharp specifically) and an over reliance on local youth that hasn't cut it I'm afraid. If the two internationals can get their visas and a couple of internationals get fit we will see a huge difference in our team's ability to perform the basics and we will improve. Agar should be judged then and not until.

That's the main thing I was trying to get at.

What I was meaning with the errors is that our tactics necessitate we make less errors than the opposition a lot of the time. By this I mean that the bulk of our scoring is designed around forcing opponent error, whereas they are capable of both benefitting from our errors and opening us up through sheer skill and quality rugby. As soon as we start gifting them as many points as they do us, we'll always get outscored in terms of tries that are genuinely created.

I actually wonder if this increased pressure on individuals may have a bearing on our poor basic errors becoming too common, it could be playing on the minds of the players.

Looking at it another way I wonder if our tactics are based around the ability (or lack of) of our back line particularly with so many 1st choicers missing.

That said I don't buy into the 5 drives and a kick theory being our only tactic. In the last few games the vast majority of our errors have been made by outside backs whilst attempting to pass the ball out wide along the line.

The reason Agar gets the lions share of the blame is because he is the coach the buck stops with him.
He doesn;t help his case when he admits he doesn't know what to do to change/stop what is happening.

I tend to agree. In the games we have lost this season (apart from probably Quins) we have made an error close to our own line early in the game and conceeded a try. You could visibly see the players heads drop.

5 drives and a kick is predictable and wont win any games other than catching some teams cold early in the season. Someone was being interviewed on the footie show in oz the other week and they were asked what it was like to play against team x. They replied, its fairly easy, theyve only got one pivot.

We play with a prop at 13 and 1 pivotal halfback. (the one getting the stick too)

We then play 5 drives and a kick. Its predictable and easy to stop. Salford in the cup just condensed their defensive lines as they knew we wouldnt go wide.