FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!
  
FORUMS > Hull FC > Adam please bring back Sunday Rugby
116 posts in 9 pages 
<<   PREV  NEXT   >>
Subscribe | Moderators: Admin, Kosh , Roland_R , Karen
RankPostsTeam
Moderator36786
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 200321 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Aug 2024May 2023LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
6505_1460484023.jpg
[i:10za56ci]Hold on to me baby, his bony hands will do you no harm It said in the cards, we lost our souls to the Nameless One[/i:10za56ci]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6505.jpg

Moderator


Quote: Marfa Manu "Of course it is....How many people do you think fill in a survey ? or actually go on the website ? Or receive the grapevine ?

I will tell you like this board a very small minority of the faithful.'"

Of course it's a small sample - I made the same point myself elsewhere. But it's a [idifferent[/i small sample of an unknown size and with an unknown overlap with the posters on this board. There will be people who did the survey but don't post on here and vice versa. No meaningful conclusion can be drawn by trying to compare the two without a whole bunch more data.

I realise that you're upset by this decision given that you're one of the more ardent advocates of Friday nights, but you're not approaching this logically.

RankPostsTeam
Moderator36786
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 200321 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Aug 2024May 2023LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
6505_1460484023.jpg
[i:10za56ci]Hold on to me baby, his bony hands will do you no harm It said in the cards, we lost our souls to the Nameless One[/i:10za56ci]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6505.jpg

Moderator


Quote: Marfa Manu "There will have been a couple of hundred responses at the most!'"

Based on what data? icon_confused.gif

RankPostsTeam
Player Coach16983No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Aug 200816 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Mar 2015Oct 2013LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
40452_1335639638.jpg
[img:218z2l9g]http://i40.tinypic.com/tz8ti.jpg[/img:218z2l9g]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_40452.jpg



Quote: Kosh "Of course it's a small sample - I made the same point myself elsewhere. But it's a [idifferent[/i small sample of an unknown size and with an unknown overlap with the posters on this board. There will be people who did the survey but don't post on here and vice versa. No meaningful conclusion can be drawn by trying to compare the two without a whole bunch more data.

I realise that you're upset by this decision given that you're one of the more ardent advocates of Friday nights, but you're not approaching this logically.'"

No I am not upset, I doubt very much I will miss a game icon_lol.gif....It may be a mad rush upto the end of April but I am sure we will be there as usual.
In fact I doubt 100 people responded!

RankPostsTeam
Player Coach3231No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Aug 200519 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Sep 2024Nov 2017LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
17490_1406583406.jpg
First there was wisdom Then there was knowledge Now there is only information:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_17490.jpg



Quote: Kosh "Of course it's a small sample - I made the same point myself elsewhere. But it's a [idifferent[/i small sample of an unknown size and with an unknown overlap with the posters on this board. There will be people who did the survey but don't post on here and vice versa. No meaningful conclusion can be drawn by trying to compare the two without a whole bunch more data.

I realise that you're upset by this decision given that you're one of the more ardent advocates of Friday nights, but you're not approaching this logically.'"


Come on Kosh this is emotive stuff - its unfair to expect fans to approach it logically.

RankPostsTeam
Moderator36786
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 200321 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Aug 2024May 2023LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
6505_1460484023.jpg
[i:10za56ci]Hold on to me baby, his bony hands will do you no harm It said in the cards, we lost our souls to the Nameless One[/i:10za56ci]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6505.jpg

Moderator


Quote: Marfa Manu "No I am not upset, I doubt very much I will miss a game Then I don't understand all the heat and light.

RankPostsTeam
Moderator36786
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 200321 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Aug 2024May 2023LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
6505_1460484023.jpg
[i:10za56ci]Hold on to me baby, his bony hands will do you no harm It said in the cards, we lost our souls to the Nameless One[/i:10za56ci]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6505.jpg

Moderator


Quote: Diogenes "Come on Kosh this is emotive stuff - its unfair to expect fans to approach it logically.'"

I understand why people might be upset by the outcome - I had a good old rant on here myself when we changed to Fridays [iafter[/i the passes went on sale - but questioning the mechanism ought to involve some logic at least.

RankPostsTeam
Player Coach16983No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Aug 200816 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Mar 2015Oct 2013LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
40452_1335639638.jpg
[img:218z2l9g]http://i40.tinypic.com/tz8ti.jpg[/img:218z2l9g]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_40452.jpg



Quote: Kosh "Then I don't understand all the heat and light.'"

Because this clearly has nothing to do with what all the faithful want as only a few even knew a survey was even taking place, also they claim the decision was made before the end of the survey due to the overwhelming response, now I say that is complete and utter b0llox!...this is no better than the stunts the last lot pulled. Like mentioned the results should be made public.

Why not write to every passholder ? and put it on the website, then they could have had 8000 fans opinions ?

RankPostsTeam
Player Coach3231No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Aug 200519 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Sep 2024Nov 2017LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
17490_1406583406.jpg
First there was wisdom Then there was knowledge Now there is only information:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_17490.jpg



Quote: Kosh "I understand why people might be upset by the outcome - I had a good old rant on here myself when we changed to Fridays [iafter[/i the passes went on sale - but questioning the mechanism ought to involve some logic at least.'"


But surely everyone is going to look at it from their own position? Their perspective is their reality.

And surely its illogical to make a decision before the survey closes.

RankPostsTeam
Club Owner1707No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
May 200321 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Aug 2016Aug 2016LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
icons077e_files/5452-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg
"Be you ever so high, the law is above you" "No one has ever made himself great by showing how small someone else is". - Irvin Himmel Tony, Blacklock, Yeaman, Whiting, Raynor, R. Horne, Brough, Dowes, Swain, Carvell, McMenemy, Kearney, Cooke. Replacements: Thackray, King, Chester, Saxton.:icons077e_files/5452-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg



Quote: Graham Richards "Just to be consistent I will say the sooner game day is back to Sunday the better. Weekends are c rap when we have been beaten. I only have so much cash to spend so all this talk of it leaving the weekend free to be with family etc is b olloxs as rugby is my choice of leisure with the family as it was for my parents and I can't afford to take family to both every other week. It also does exclude kids from going in a lot of cases school night or not. I also feel Friday nights restrict the match day experience. If done correctly we could generate a great experience utilising the Park and the ground facilities similar to in Australia if we played at 3pm on a sunday. The day could build from mid morning onwards. The SMC would be pleased as additional sales would come in etc. There are massive opportunities which cannot be explored at 7pm on a Friday night.
The players rest argument is b olloxs. If you actually go through the fixtures there is enough variation in the playing dates to show this actually balances out. It was an argument used at the time of the change which does not stand up to scrutiny.
The away support is diminished on a Friday night and also it restricts the home support to a parochial crowd who are simply local at the exclusion of those who have flown the nest as it where.
I appreciate it doesn't work for all, but a mix would be far better as it was thus allowing everyone to be included. I do suspect though that it will stay the same as Jimmy will always fall back on his scientific survey.'"


Thank you Adam. You and I will go far together.

RankPostsTeam
Moderator36786
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 200321 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Aug 2024May 2023LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
6505_1460484023.jpg
[i:10za56ci]Hold on to me baby, his bony hands will do you no harm It said in the cards, we lost our souls to the Nameless One[/i:10za56ci]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6505.jpg

Moderator


Quote: Marfa Manu "Because this clearly has nothing to do with what all the faithful want as only a few even knew a survey was even taking place, also they claim the decision was made before the end of the survey due to the overwhelming response, now I say that is complete and utter b0llox!...this is no better than the stunts the last lot pulled. Like mentioned the results should be made public.

Why not write to every passholder ? and put it on the website, then they could have had 8000 fans opinions ?'"

It isn't 'clearly' anything. You've expressed [iyour opinion[/i, not fact. It's entirely possible that the majority of surveys sent out have been returned and the majority of those favoured Sundays.

The survey WAS on the website - you just had to register for The Grapevine to have it delivered. Granted that process seems to have been hit-and-miss at best.

Writing to every pass-holder would have taken too long and cost too much. Similarly with the original idea of including the question with the pass renewal forms. By the time the result was in it would be too late to change things for next season.

At least this time people will know what's happening [ibefore[/i they buy a pass.

RankPostsTeam
Player Coach16983No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Aug 200816 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Mar 2015Oct 2013LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
40452_1335639638.jpg
[img:218z2l9g]http://i40.tinypic.com/tz8ti.jpg[/img:218z2l9g]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_40452.jpg



Quote: Kosh "I understand why people might be upset by the outcome - I had a good old rant on here myself when we changed to Fridays [iafter[/i the passes went on sale - but questioning the mechanism ought to involve some logic at least.'"

'eh!!
They made a decision before the survey closed, a survey which was only open to the few supporters who actually use the website..where is the logic in that ?

RankPostsTeam
Player Coach16983No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Aug 200816 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Mar 2015Oct 2013LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
40452_1335639638.jpg
[img:218z2l9g]http://i40.tinypic.com/tz8ti.jpg[/img:218z2l9g]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_40452.jpg



Quote: Kosh "It isn't 'clearly' anything. You've expressed [iyour opinion[/i, not fact. It's entirely possible that the majority of surveys sent out have been returned and the majority of those favoured Sundays.

The survey WAS on the website - you just had to register for The Grapevine to have it delivered. Granted that process seems to have been hit-and-miss at best.

Writing to every pass-holder would have taken too long and cost too much. Similarly with the original idea of including the question with the pass renewal forms. By the time the result was in it would be too late to change things for next season.

At least this time people will know what's happening [ibefore[/i they buy a pass.'"

I am a season pass holder as are 3 others in my home, none of us receive the grapevine, there are only a few hundred fans signed upto the grapevine how is that a reflection of 12000 fans ?
With this in mind the club should be honest and say we have sampled a very small minority, not come out with all the overwhleming figures b0llox

RankPostsTeam
Moderator36786
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 200321 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Aug 2024May 2023LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
6505_1460484023.jpg
[i:10za56ci]Hold on to me baby, his bony hands will do you no harm It said in the cards, we lost our souls to the Nameless One[/i:10za56ci]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6505.jpg

Moderator


Quote: Diogenes "But surely everyone is going to look at it from their own position? Their perspective is their reality.

And surely its illogical to make a decision before the survey closes.'"

Looking at an objective reality - the survey and how it was carried out - from a subjective position isn't logical. The [iresult[/i will rightly be assessed on an absolutely subjective basis.

If you sent out X number of survey forms, and you had two thirds back in a week advocating Sunday matches, why would it be logical to wait for the remaining third to arrive before announcing the result?

RankPostsTeam
Player Coach615No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Oct 200816 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
May 2012May 2012LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature

:



Quote: Marfa Manu "I am a season pass holder as are 3 others in my home, none of us receive the grapevine, there are only a few hundred fans signed upto the grapevine how is that a reflection of 12000 fans ?
With this in mind the club should be honest and say we have sampled a very small minority, not come out with all the overwhleming figures b0llox'"


How is it you know this? the way you imply this in your post suggests you know this with certainty.

RankPostsTeam
Moderator36786
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 200321 years
OnlineLast PostLast Page
Aug 2024May 2023LINK
Milestone Posts
0
100
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Signature
6505_1460484023.jpg
[i:10za56ci]Hold on to me baby, his bony hands will do you no harm It said in the cards, we lost our souls to the Nameless One[/i:10za56ci]:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_6505.jpg

Moderator


Quote: Marfa Manu "'eh!!
They made a decision before the survey closed, a survey which was only open to the few supporters who actually use the website..where is the logic in that ?'"

Two different issues there.

1. Making a decision before the survey closes is not inherently illogical if you have more responses back in favour of Sundays than outstanding responses. The remaining responses cannot possibly change the result so waiting until they are in makes no difference.

2. The original plan appears to have been to canvas existing pass holders via the renewal forms. This would have given the most representative result. The downside is that you either have to delay the decision until the 2013 season or change things after people have bought passes. Clearly the club decided that they wanted to avoid that. The next best thing is what we had - send out surveys to a known group of FC fans who are likely to fill them in and return them in good time. It's not ideal but better than anything we've had before.

116 posts in 9 pages 
<<   PREV  NEXT   >>
Subscribe | Moderators: Admin, Kosh , Roland_R , Karen
116 posts in 9 pages 
<<   PREV  NEXT   >>
Subscribe | Moderators: Admin, Kosh , Roland_R , Karen



All views expressed are those of the author and not necessarily those of the RLFANS.COM or its subsites.

Whilst every effort is made to ensure that news stories, articles and images are correct, we cannot be held responsible for errors. However, if you feel any material on this website is copyrighted or incorrect in any way please contact us using the link at the top of the page so we can remove it or negotiate copyright permission.

RLFANS.COM, the owners of this website, is not responsible for the content of its sub-sites or posts, please email the author of this sub-site or post if you feel you find an article offensive or of a choice nature that you disagree with.

Copyright 1999 - 2024 RLFANS.COM

You must be 18+ to gamble, for more information and for help with gambling issues see https://www.begambleaware.org/.



Please Support RLFANS.COM


1.8935546875:5
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
6m
Film game
karetaker
4996
7m
England vs Samoa
Wigg'n
112
24m
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
Chris71
3677
26m
Transfer Talk V5
excruciating
362
Recent
Dons Squad 2025
Jemmo
6
Recent
2025 Season tickets
VanGinger
18
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
43s
OUT 2025 Justin Sangare - Released
Ex-Swarcliff
17
48s
Film game
karetaker
4996
55s
England vs Samoa
Wigg'n
112
1m
Betting 2025
phil webbo
19
1m
2025 Season tickets
VanGinger
18
1m
Recruitment rumours and links
Smiffy27
3491
1m
IMG scores
FIL
254
1m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
2537
1m
New Kit
Captain Hook
61
1m
Planning for next season
LeythIg
163
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
2025 Kit
Wigan Bull
1
TODAY
2025 merchandise
FIL
1
TODAY
NBR Does Smithers have a hangover
Deadcowboys1
1
TODAY
Its all gone a bit quiet
BigTime
5
TODAY
England Beat Samoa To Take Test Series
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
McMeekan
Trojan Horse
13
TODAY
Englands Women Demolish The Welsh
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Lee Kershaw
Big lads mat
9
TODAY
2025 Shirt
The Whiffy K
11
TODAY
Home Shirt 2025
MattyB
1
TODAY
Uele contract extension
Khlav Kalash
5
TODAY
Squad for Match 2 v Samoa
rubber ducki
6
TODAY
2024/25 out of season mind occupier 2
Boss Hog
11
TODAY
Sky tv deals
ninearches
6
TODAY
2024/25 out of season mind occupier 1
Lord Tony Sm
24
TODAY
New Kit
Captain Hook
61
TODAY
Memorable Games
Rugby Raider
6
TODAY
Hybrid rugby
moto748
11
TODAY
Pre Season - 2025
Roam Ranger
41
TODAY
England v Australia
karetaker
24
TODAY
The Aussies are coming
PopTart
19
TODAY
England Beat Samoa Comfortably In First Test
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
England v Samoa
Captain Hook
33
TODAY
England vs Samoa
Wigg'n
112
TODAY
Trinity back on super league forum
RoyBoy29
4
TODAY
IN 2025 Maika Sivo - Expires 2028
batleyrhino
36
TODAY
Danny McGuire new head coach
Huddersfield
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
England Beat Samoa To Take Tes..
374
England's Women Demolish The W..
340
England Beat Samoa Comfortably..
692
Operational Rules Tribunal –..
537
IMG-RFL club gradings released..
713
Wakefield Trinity Win Champion..
1308
Hunslet Secure Promotion After..
1537
Trinity Into Play Off Final Af..
1800
Wigan Warriors Crowned Champio..
1377
York Valkyrie Win Back to Back..
1650
Hunslet Book Relegation Play O..
2016
Penrith Panthers Secure Fourth..
1585
Wigan Humiliate Leigh For Gran..
1690
Hull KR Survive Warrington Fig..
1802
Warrington Wolves Break Saints..
2000
POSTSONLINEREGISTRATIONSRECORD
19.64M 971 80,15414,103
LOGIN HERE
or REGISTER for more features!.

When you register you get access to the live match scores, live match chat and you can post in the discussions on the forums.
RLFANS Match Centre
There are currently no matches to display.
Matches on TV
Sat 2nd Nov
MINT2024 3 England M34-16Samoa M
WINT2024 2 ENGLAND W82-0WALES W
Sun 27th Oct
MINT2024 2 England M34-18Samoa M
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
6m
Film game
karetaker
4996
7m
England vs Samoa
Wigg'n
112
24m
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
Chris71
3677
26m
Transfer Talk V5
excruciating
362
Recent
Dons Squad 2025
Jemmo
6
Recent
2025 Season tickets
VanGinger
18
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
43s
OUT 2025 Justin Sangare - Released
Ex-Swarcliff
17
48s
Film game
karetaker
4996
55s
England vs Samoa
Wigg'n
112
1m
Betting 2025
phil webbo
19
1m
2025 Season tickets
VanGinger
18
1m
Recruitment rumours and links
Smiffy27
3491
1m
IMG scores
FIL
254
1m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
2537
1m
New Kit
Captain Hook
61
1m
Planning for next season
LeythIg
163
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
2025 Kit
Wigan Bull
1
TODAY
2025 merchandise
FIL
1
TODAY
NBR Does Smithers have a hangover
Deadcowboys1
1
TODAY
Its all gone a bit quiet
BigTime
5
TODAY
England Beat Samoa To Take Test Series
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
McMeekan
Trojan Horse
13
TODAY
Englands Women Demolish The Welsh
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Lee Kershaw
Big lads mat
9
TODAY
2025 Shirt
The Whiffy K
11
TODAY
Home Shirt 2025
MattyB
1
TODAY
Uele contract extension
Khlav Kalash
5
TODAY
Squad for Match 2 v Samoa
rubber ducki
6
TODAY
2024/25 out of season mind occupier 2
Boss Hog
11
TODAY
Sky tv deals
ninearches
6
TODAY
2024/25 out of season mind occupier 1
Lord Tony Sm
24
TODAY
New Kit
Captain Hook
61
TODAY
Memorable Games
Rugby Raider
6
TODAY
Hybrid rugby
moto748
11
TODAY
Pre Season - 2025
Roam Ranger
41
TODAY
England v Australia
karetaker
24
TODAY
The Aussies are coming
PopTart
19
TODAY
England Beat Samoa Comfortably In First Test
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
England v Samoa
Captain Hook
33
TODAY
England vs Samoa
Wigg'n
112
TODAY
Trinity back on super league forum
RoyBoy29
4
TODAY
IN 2025 Maika Sivo - Expires 2028
batleyrhino
36
TODAY
Danny McGuire new head coach
Huddersfield
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
England Beat Samoa To Take Tes..
374
England's Women Demolish The W..
340
England Beat Samoa Comfortably..
692
Operational Rules Tribunal –..
537
IMG-RFL club gradings released..
713
Wakefield Trinity Win Champion..
1308
Hunslet Secure Promotion After..
1537
Trinity Into Play Off Final Af..
1800
Wigan Warriors Crowned Champio..
1377
York Valkyrie Win Back to Back..
1650
Hunslet Book Relegation Play O..
2016
Penrith Panthers Secure Fourth..
1585
Wigan Humiliate Leigh For Gran..
1690
Hull KR Survive Warrington Fig..
1802
Warrington Wolves Break Saints..
2000


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!