Ashley Klein and Russell Smith were both considered by many to be crap refs over here, until they went to Oz, then they were suddenly the best we had. Similarly Karl Kirkpatrick wasn't well thought of until he jacked because he couldn't afford to go full-time.

Some people should be careful what they wish for

I'm not going to constantly explain things, only to be met with RL Fans answer to Vicky Pollard

I'm crushed. No, really.

Edited for accuracy

Ganson told me and a couple of other guys that they get £50k. May have been bull. That was a couple of years ago.

Personally I thought Kirkpatrick was dreadful in his early days but grew to be a fine referee. Smith I always thought was pretty decent, likewise Klein although his form dropped towards the end.

Whatever you thought of them at the time to go from rotating...

Kirkpatrick, Ganson, Silverwood, R Smith, Klein, I Smith, Connolly

to rotating...

Ganson, Silverwood, Thaler, Alibert, Hicks, Roby, Child

is a colossal decline in quality.

As I said on the Hick's Injury thread, you're not going to improve the quality by much without improving the numbers, if there's no one snapping at the heels of the incumbents, then there's no incentive for them to improve.

Without knowing all the ins & outs of the elite referee's remuneration package, I would imagine that Cummings is under pressure to keep costs down, that's why we now see elite referees running touchlines, working on th priciple of "they're being paid, so we might as well use them".

Whoever the next SL sponsor may be, rather than the money simply be doled out to clubs to fund another foreign import, I'd like to see that money spent in the grassroots of the game and that includes referees. Hull officials always seemed to get flak whenever they travelled, I often heard "We told BARLA/The RFL not to send us refs from Hull because you cost too much in travelling expenses". When I had a job that included all private mileage on my expenses, I never charged travelling expenses to amateur clubs anyway, so would quite often spend 8 hours travelling + game time for amateur match-fee, which wasn't much to start with. During the miners' strike I don't know of any Hull refs who charged amateur clubs in mining communities anything at all. We certainly weren't in it for the money.

Most refs are ex-players: I started after a fracture of C6 stopped me playing again. Although I used to play in Hull Refs' friendlies until Harvey Standeven took a look at my X-rays and told me to stop immediately or risk ending up like Mich Shoebottom (Stan's words, not mine). The reason you don't see many ex-pros taking up the whistle is simple. Even though there has been a fast-track system for many years now, they know how hard the job is and apart from Jamie Bloem, I can't think of another ex-pro player who has come anywhere close to elite refereeing.

Apart from local refs' societies, there's very little initiative in attracting and recruiting new referees and that's another charge that can be laid squarely at Stuart Cummings' feet. I've also always complained about the lack of transparancy in the promotion of referees and how it more often had to do with who you knew rather than what you did on the field. I knew of pro-club 'A' team officials who would keep a referees marks low on purpose because "if we mark you up, you'll get promoted and then we'll lose you".

Believe me, I'm as frustrated as anyone at the standard of refereeing and apart from the elite going full-time, can see no evidence of anything that's really changed since Stuart Cummings took over. When Lindop was in charge, you were expected to referee like he used to. Now say what you like about Fred but he was super-fit, he did however want to see every ref standing over every tackle and then getting back to the 10m for the PtB. Most times it was simply unnecessary and quite often you'd miss things because you were too close to the action that a wider field of vision would enable you to spot. When McCallum took charge, everything changed, you still had to be fit but he wanted to see a more relaxed style of refereeing. I'll be buggered if I know what Cummins is looking for.

Consistency is an often talked-about problem and it is an issue but if the refs started clamping down on everything, games would last 20 minutes longer and end with fewer players on the field. As I've said, I've yet to see any tangible evidence that that standards of refereeing have declined over the years. We've seen an increase in discussion but that's mainly down to technology and websites like this. In the past we'd be lucky if the BBC had more than two cameras at a game and we didn't have the "advantage" of multi-angle, slo-mo replays of any contentious incidents, so any moaning consisted of chanting on the terraces or a week-old letter to Rugby Leaguer.

Stop harking back to a mythical era of "great refereeing", it never, ever happened

I still disagree with this claim, and I also wonder what 'tangible' evidence there ever could be of what is largely an intangible task. For one thing (and you yourself have said this is a problem), referee assessments are kept in house, so there is no available evidence there of how good a job they are doing, and for another we have Cummings outright refusing to accept that his refs have made a mistake on too many occasions.

There is also another major problem with rugby league in the way coaches and players are effectively gagged on their true and full opinions of referees. That's the reason why the 'moaning' is still restricted to discussions amongst the fans, because we're the only ones who won't end up getting hit in the pocket for speaking out. It's not because the standard hasn't fallen, it's because the RFL have effectively banned anyone from pointing it out.

And I don't think anyone has ever claimed we have had an era of "great refereeing", that's your own straw man. Some of us just think it used to be better, not perfect.

Where have I harked back to an era of great refereeing? I've simply said that if you look at the referees we had five or six years ago they were much, much better than the ones we have now. It wasn't a great era for refereeing, but it was better than the absolute mess we have now.

You won't see any tangible evidence because it's an intangible thing. It's the opinion and perception of the standards of refereeing. In your opinion they're about the same. In my opinion they're noticeably worse, even from five years ago. Embarrassingly so in fact.

Great minds and all that Karl.

How about Richard Silverwood for some tangible evidence? I'd say five or six years ago he was the worst referee we had. Useless. Certainly behind Ganson, Kirkpatrick, Klein, and both Smiths in both pecking order and quality. Certainly not somebody you'd see taking a cup semi final or a Wigan Saints game etc. He was the guy doing Cas and Widnes.

He's still dreadful IMO, certainly hasn't got any better, but now he's seen as our top official, doing internationals, cup finals and the big league games. And doing them awfully.

Totally agree about Silverwood's improved standing being a good indicator, although I wouldn't personally say he's the best now, I think Bentham.

Going back to that bunch of referees, I'd say that they all had faults, but the major plus most had was that they were largely consistent. Klein I thought kept a skinny 10, so it tended to make games a bit more of a dour up the middle game, but TBF he did it to both sides. Kirkpatrick was a pretty good ref IMO, Ian Smith OK, and Russell Smith was one I always thought was rubbish at the ground but then usually realised I was wrong when I watched it back on TV, and pretty spot on when reffing others so it pointed to him being a good ref.

It's actually this latter point that reinforces my belief that the standards genuinely have slipped. It's easy to think a referee has done wrong by your own team, and then marvel in a neutral game 'why can't he ref all our games like this?', when really the difference is that your own bias has been put to one side. The last couple of years, however, I have found that no matter which teams I'm watching play I think the officiating has been lacking and usually that one side could have more cause for complaint than the other.

This is my main gripe about having 2 refs, they can both ref the same game in a totally different style.

That's a very valid point. I personally think that what is needed more than an additional ref is for the existing refs to show more faith in their linesmen and allow them/demand more responsibility with offsides, forward passes etc, so that they can focus more on the ruck etc and get it right. I also agree with Cod'ead about having officiating teams working together regularly, it makes so much sense I can't think of why it is not already the case.

thank you very much, in that one sentence you have expertly, superbly and without error backed up my earlier post about refs!!

No one doubts its a tough job, like being a copper no one doubts its a tough job but equally there are many who are i am sure in it for their own glorification and believe their own hype AND then consider it beyond question and the system backs them to the hilt much the same as the RFL
However it still does not make them good honest coppers OR refs
AND for your info thats from someone whom reffed both youth Rugby back in the 70s/80s and spent 4 years as a copper so dont even think about telling me there is no such thing as a bent ref or copper ok
But you carry on congratulating yourself and stroking your inner thigh with your own hype whilst those of us with an eyeball either side of their nose (not one in the middle like you) continue to see that we are suffering the worst officials on any pitch in any sport on the planet!!!