If you didn't feel it was true then you wouldn't feel patronised

There is a bigger objective here mate. No one posting on here wants to see us lose but would accept a few losses if it made us stronger in teh long term.

It's a bit like recruitment. Would we rather bring in a young player who might take some time to get up to speed or an ageing croc who will maybe win us teh odd game but who will cost us a fortune and isn't in it for the long term

Any number of posts indicate otherwise.

To be fair Tommy the explanation for preferring us to lose or wanting to see lower attendances has been given on this forum numerous times this week, you're on here enough not to have missed it.

It's a simple, well thought out argument and in most facets of life seeing the bigger picture and planning ahead are generally thought to be good practice. What's actually harder to understand is the view you hold, which while being admittedly more traditional, seems based only on the misguided belief that to be a proper supporter you must think only of the short-term.

I'm with Tommy. No matter what I think about the coach and the board I want my team to win regardless.

It's okay saying you would accept a couple of losses if it made us stronger but none of us know how many losses it will takeand none of us know who would come in. The new coach for instance could be Macca and then imo we would be no better off.

The point is that traditionally a supporter doesn't need to think about wanting the team he supports to win games. It's a given, a fundamental and defining aspect of being a supporter.

I understand why people might not want to go to games any more; I understand why people would [iaccept[/i mounting losses if it brought us closer to a better coach; I don't understand people who [iactively want[/i us to lose games. It goes against everything I understood being a supporter to be about.

personally i never want to see my team lose, but for a couple of different reasons. firstly it makes me feel i've had a good week if my team wins and i feel happier, and secondly it stops dobbins supporters having a go at work.

and of course i want rovers to lose for exactly the same reasons

Yer I do get that argument, but it comes back to long term and short term again. I do want us to win games, and I'm confident that by losing a few more games now we are improving our chances (albeit not guaranteeing) of getting a proper Coach in, and then over the next 2 or 3 years we will win more games than we would if the current regime stayed in place.

The only thing anyone has ever said to counter that argument is along the lines of 'long-term and bigger picture shouldn't come into it' but there's been no real explanation for why it shouldnt.

I'm not particualry bothered about how many people turn up tonight to be honest. I think we'll win but will that change anything given that we go to Wigan next week? We all know what's going to happen that day and that's the problem - we're not in the same league as the top four teams when we should be.

Because supporting a sports team isn't (or at least shouldn't be) an intellectual exercise.

You know what I mean. Stop being a pedant

Indeed, but if we never did anything for fear that things might be worse, we'd all still believe the earth was flat and the moon was made of cheese.

It's catch 22. agar isn't good enough and will lose plenty of games this season. Personally I'd rather it happened now and we got rid and tried to make something of teh season, or at least put us in a better position going forward. FWIW, I haven't said I want to see us lose, merely if we did and it hastened his departure then it would be worth it

The less the better for me. Makes getting in and out much easier

That's an interesting point actually and TBH in the most traditional sense of the term then, maybe I'm not a 'true supporter'. I could easily argue though that I have far more desire to see us be successful than a 'true supporter' does, as he is only looking out for the short-term.

I think 'long term' and 'short term' need a little more definition in order to be useful in this situation TBH. Most supporters have a mixture of long term and short term goals, and your assumption that everyone who has the short-term desire to see us win the next game lacks the long-term desire to see us lift silverware is a classic false dichotomy and could even be deemed patronising by some.

For instance, pretty much everyone in the 'pro-Agar' camp is also supportive of the steps the board has taken to put us on a [ilong-term[/i viable financial footing. I'd also argue that every fan posting on here wants us to win silverware ASAP, let alone the long term. The difference is that some of us feel that it's disrespectful to the players and to the club to actively wish for us to lose matches, not to mention the emotional imperative to win every game.

I'm not sure it is a false dichotomy and I don't mean to say the two desires are mutually exclusive. I don't doubt every fan wants to see us win things, but this is a question of what the best way to achieve that goal is and what you are willing to sacrifice to get there. Some are willing to sacrifice being seen to be 'respectful' to the club and the 'emotional imperative' to win every game and others are not. I might be being a bit patronising but the logic is on my side and I've been patronised too by those who take the traditionalist view. The most frustrating aspect of it is that pretty much everyone has the common desire to see a proper head coach in charge, and this issue is only going to get more and more divisive until we get one.