FORUMS > Hull FC > COHA |
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| Complete waste of time comparing ourselves with each other.
How do we both compare with Wigan and Saints. That's who we both should be chasing and we are a million miles away. That's the reality of the situation despite Mrs B's little point scoring excercise.
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| Quote: R.B.A "Complete waste of time comparing ourselves with each other.
How do we both compare with Wigan and Saints. That's who we both should be chasing and we are a million miles away. That's the reality of the situation despite Mrs B's little point scoring excercise.'"
I can see why those investing time and energy into Rovers youth over a number of years would choose to turn away at irritating comparative facts, but it's not a wasted exercise. In the context of a lot of chat that Rovers have had the better academy in their SL tenure before COHA, and the best talent from it, I’m just trying to look at the evidence of what each club has produced in terms of players and appearances and retention over the course of recent years as we probably go into another round of hinting that Rovers have come off best from the separation. People can say what they want, obviously. This is about track record of delivery over a decade or more.
What you see at Hull is interesting. The dominating black slice of the pie is not limited to a particular age of player – rather there are probably 4 rough categories within it – Stalwart (e.g. Houghton, Washbrook), Mid career (such Shaul, Bowden, Hadley), Breakthrough (like Matongo, Fash, Logan, Litten), and Newbie (Wynne, Buchanan etc – don’t worry you have credit for Rooks, Bardle to balance this, although the number of games both sides is in the roundings). This implies consistent commitment to a homegrown core. It’s also of note that Hull have produced players “for” Rovers (E.g. Hall, Lee) in the grey slice to a greater extent than the other way round (basically Taylor). Rovers home produced and retained is minimal, isn’t it? There will be some chat about mitigating circumstances of course, but this is my point. The “jam tomorrow” promises going unfulfilled followed by more jam tomorrow promises cycle is all well and good in this regard but the data here is the reality over an extended period.
Of course other questions can be asked. What about looking beyond this time period, ie further back? OK then, we’ll add back Kirk Yeaman and Richard Horne with 375 and 387 appearances respectively, maybe Paul Cooke, Paul King, Tom Briscoe, Lee Radford. What about players produced and going outside the city? Well, we can count a few I suppose – Abdull, Cunningham, Lyne, Briscoe spring to mind and I guess Josh Hodgson was our academy POTY. I think Watts was one of yours and Jon Wilkin obviously, Kris Welham. None of this changes the picture much. If you’re a young player and looking at the evidence, you’d have to say FC are the more credible model for production and retention of Hull talent. If you can demonstrate otherwise, then fine.
As for the comparisons with Wigan and Saints, I'd agree we fall short of them in this and other areas as they are bigger, richer clubs, but tbh I feel we have a decent homegrown core at Hull now and am satisfied it's a blend of experience, quality and potential. I'd feel less comfortable if I were a Rovers fan.
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| Quote: Armavinit "Sooooooo, Mrs. B owned you. That has got to be the biggest bite of a Pie since “Jaws”
Tbf there's not much in the stats to cheer a Rovers fan and MR as expected has made the best of very little to create a debate when there's not really one to be had.
I'll look at Lee Radford vs the 4 Rovers coaches in derby games for my next analysis. Maybe they will get Ford over the line in time for the next one. Perhaps send York some players to expedite things, that sort of thing.
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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| Quote: Armavinit "Sooooooo, Mrs. B owned you. That has got to be the biggest bite of a Pie since “Jaws”
Oops - wish i’d seen it coming and not walked unknowingly into the trap.
Right here’s my stab at Hull FC. Please correct any mistakes - they’re unintentional, I swear. I couldn’t find any evidence that Bobby Tyson-Wilson, Reece Dean or Ross Osborne ever played for your first team, but you may know better. Interesting to look through your old squads for some of the oddities that i’d forgotten. Tom Biggs, for example. Anyway...
You’ll be unsurprised to see it is rather better in relative terms. I’d be curious on your thoughts on it in absolute terms - would you be happy/satisfied with similar over the coming 5 years?
2012: Bowden (132), Crooks (51), Cunningham (10), Jack Briscoe (1)
2013: Shaul (150), Hadley (83)
2014: Abdull (54), Harry Tyson-Wilson (1)
2015: Fash (55), Matongo (49), Logan (3icon_cool.gif, Turgut (30), Downs (20), Lancaster (7)
2016: erm, none as far as I can tell. Obviously 6 was a good number the year before. Litten and Lane were both 2017, according to wiki.
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59871_1384965068.gif :d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_59871.gif |
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| Quote: Mild Rover "Oops - wish i’d seen it coming and not walked unknowingly into the trap.
Right here’s my stab at Hull FC. Please correct any mistakes - they’re unintentional, I swear. I couldn’t find any evidence that Bobby Tyson-Wilson, Reece Dean or Ross Osborne ever played for your first team, but you may know better. Interesting to look through your old squads for some of the oddities that i’d forgotten. Tom Biggs, for example. Anyway...
You’ll be unsurprised to see it is rather better in relative terms. I’d be curious on your thoughts on it in absolute terms - would you be happy/satisfied with similar over the coming 5 years?
2012
2016 was an excellent year for us. Very little need for youth because the first team squad stayed relatively fit. 2017 was also reasonably injury free. It showed in the seasons performances, Cup winners and play off semis, as opposed to last season.
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simpsons/simp100.gif :simpsons/simp100.gif |
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| Quote: Mild Rover "Oops - wish i’d seen it coming and not walked unknowingly into the trap.
Right here’s my stab at Hull FC. Please correct any mistakes - they’re unintentional, I swear. I couldn’t find any evidence that Bobby Tyson-Wilson, Reece Dean or Ross Osborne ever played for your first team, but you may know better. Interesting to look through your old squads for some of the oddities that i’d forgotten. Tom Biggs, for example. Anyway...
You’ll be unsurprised to see it is rather better in relative terms. I’d be curious on your thoughts on it in absolute terms - would you be happy/satisfied with similar over the coming 5 years?
2012
In 2016 (and 2017) we did very well on the injury front which may explain the lack of debuts from the young folks.
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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| Quote: Mrs Barista "I’m just trying to look at the evidence
If you’re a young player and looking at the evidence, you’d have to say FC are the more credible model for production and retention of Hull talent. If you can demonstrate otherwise, then fine.
As for the comparisons with Wigan and Saints, I'd agree we fall short of them in this and other areas as they are bigger, richer clubs, but tbh I feel we have a decent homegrown core at Hull now and am satisfied it's a blend of experience, quality and potential. I'd feel less comfortable if I were a Rovers fan.'"
Your attempt to look at the evidence is an abomination. A fun abomination, but still. Also for any budding statisticians (or pedantic ****s), where Mrs B has written that the ‘the data here is the reality’, she means the ‘the data here are the reality’.
I agree though that Hull have a better recent track record, and that we need to look at why we struggled even compared with you (never mind Saints or Wigan) and at what should be done differently from now on. One thing though, there’s either not as much local talent nowadays as people like to think, or both clubs were doing a pretty mediocre job earlier in the decade (Rovers more so, admittedly). When you’re illustrating points about youth development with players who have retired, it’s not a great sign.
A homegrown core has value, I fully accept. However, it is overstated by people associated with successful clubs because it makes them feel warm and fuzzy, whereas believing that the success they enjoyed relied more heavily on simply having more money than the opposition would perhaps be too bleak for them.
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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| Quote: Faithful One "In 2016 (and 2017) we did very well on the injury front which may explain the lack of debuts from the young folks.'"
In contrast we had five make their debuts, the most for us in the period I looked at, and got relegated.
Now, it could be coincidence - but it’s interesting imo.
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| On a related topic, Hull beat Wakefield reserves 48-16 away. Cameron Scott hat trick.
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33809_1522680904.png 'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_33809.png |
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| Quote: Mrs Barista "Much better! Although
Tbf, i’m happy using ‘alternatives’, which some people object to, believing it should only ever be singlular because of its Latin root. Language evolves and is all about common usage. i’d also defend my dialectical heritage passionately.
Could of been, borrow me, learnt me... there is a line.
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39643_1299688438.png The words of fools mean nothing to one who resides in the truth.:d7dc4b20b2c2dd7b76ac6eac29d5604e_39643.png |
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| Quote: Mild Rover "Oops - wish i’d seen it coming and not walked unknowingly into the trap.
Right here’s my stab at Hull FC. Please correct any mistakes - they’re unintentional, I swear. I couldn’t find any evidence that Bobby Tyson-Wilson, Reece Dean or Ross Osborne ever played for your first team, but you may know better. Interesting to look through your old squads for some of the oddities that i’d forgotten. Tom Biggs, for example. Anyway...
You’ll be unsurprised to see it is rather better in relative terms. I’d be curious on your thoughts on it in absolute terms - would you be happy/satisfied with similar over the coming 5 years?
2012
Bobby did play first team. So did a few others. I'm fairly sure I've also missed some so don't worry about it mate!
2012 Tom Lineham (6icon_cool.gif, Chris Green (12icon_cool.gif, Liam Kent (12)
2015 Bobby Tyson Wilson (2) Challenge cup v Sheffield Eagles, Super League v Salford.
2016 Jack Downs (20) (NOT 2015)
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