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Quote: ComeOnYouUll "The majority (on here) are measured in their criticisms of the club. Posters who constantly rant, moan and name call can be expected to be questioned.'"


Yep, that's how it goes. Mostly it is fair, too (as it is in this thread). Unfortunately however, it does occasionally stray beyond that IMO, and the board becomes less pleasant because of it. At times there is an element of attacking posters because people don't like what they're saying (and it always escalates when we're not doing well). I was under the impression that this forum isn't for the exclusive use of those predisposed to looking for the positives, nor the opposite. I thought it was just somewhere for people to say/discuss what they think, not what people want to read.

Name-calling is always an invitation for criticism though, and deservedly so.

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Quote: Mrs Barista "Good post, agree with all of it.

I suspect AP had observed at reasonably close quarters the success we had in 04-08; the large crowds, strong merchandise, profitability and highish profile. He probably also thought that he could outwit the dour band of identikit Cox and Evans chairmen round the table at the RFL, and invest relatively little for reasonable returns. What he's found out is
a) this group of middle-aged+ Northern nylon-suited paunchy self-made men with 70s terrace heritage are pretty difficult to break down when they're of one voice
b) their knowledge of the game is actually worth something, along with their genuine club love
c) You get diminishing returns from claiming imminent success and not delivering, so savings become necessary.

What appears not yet to have realised is

Very much enjoyed the Cox and Evans riff.

In some ways I think things have gone full circle at first team level for Hull. Two important questions now - have lessons been learned? My guess would be yes - I think Pearson's self-confidence, while high, is not at a level that will make him damagingly obdurate. If things don't turn in the next couple of months, he'll make a change. I doubt he'll worry overly about his earlier unequivocal backing of Radford - things change and with them minds. Happens all the time, especially in sport.
The second question is does he have the money to 'go again'? Moran didn't get it right first time at Wire, but he kept ploughing in the cash. He though is very wealthy and was doing it in large part for love. Even with a top coach and an improved culture, your squad probably isn't good enough to deliver on Pearson's early ambitions. To have a realistic shot at top 4 in 2016 or 2017, it looks right now like some more biggish transfer fees would be needed, even along with Abdull, Turgut, HTW et al stepping up.
To me 'culture' and good decision-making, influence where you finish in your 'group' (top 4, bottom half etc) within the league. But which group you're in is mainly down to money. Which is why it is mostly the same wealthy clubs at the top year, after year. Even when somebody like Cas last year shook things up abit, it was always going to be hard for them to back it up.
Long winded way of saying AP's still got a good chance, if he's got the cash - what a chairman saves by buying nylon suits... icon_wink.gif

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Quote: Mild Rover "Very much enjoyed the Cox and Evans riff.

In some ways I think things have gone full circle at first team level for Hull. Two important questions now - have lessons been learned? My guess would be yes - I think Pearson's self-confidence, while high, is not at a level that will make him damagingly obdurate. If things don't turn in the next couple of months, he'll make a change. I doubt he'll worry overly about his earlier unequivocal backing of Radford - things change and with them minds. Happens all the time, especially in sport.
The second question is does he have the money to 'go again'? Moran didn't get it right first time at Wire, but he kept ploughing in the cash. He though is very wealthy and was doing it in large part for love. Even with a top coach and an improved culture, your squad probably isn't good enough to deliver on Pearson's early ambitions. To have a realistic shot at top 4 in 2016 or 2017, it looks right now like some more biggish transfer fees would be needed, even along with Abdull, Turgut, HTW et al stepping up.
To me 'culture' and good decision-making, influence where you finish in your 'group' (top 4, bottom half etc) within the league. But which group you're in is mainly down to money. Which is why it is mostly the same wealthy clubs at the top year, after year. Even when somebody like Cas last year shook things up abit, it was always going to be hard for them to back it up.
Long winded way of saying AP's still got a good chance, if he's got the cash - what a chairman saves by buying nylon suits... Very good! And absolutely right. My worry is that Pearson has already intimated that he's put in what he can put in. This year was to have been the watershed where a moderate level of improvement , a bit of a cup run and promise for next year as his much vaunted youngsters start to catch fire get the cash registers ringing when passes go on sale. That would have given him the money to go and get some big name players to replace/supplement the likes of Ellis , Yeaman , Pryce etc as they came to the end of their careers. He would also be thinking that prospective players would be "knocking the door down" to sign and get involved in the success to come. Quite the opposite of that is now true where there will be pressure on pass sales or , God forbid , we're not even in the SL. Even if we do survive this year just retaining players will be difficult. In my view something has to happen pretty quickly but on the other hand as you say he probably has little choice but to leave it for , say , the next 3 games. I also think that he's probably got an agreement with Radford "written in" where he'll walk when asked rather than be sacked.

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Quote: ChrisH "Very good! And absolutely right. My worry is that Pearson has already intimated that he's put in what he can put in. This year was to have been the watershed where a moderate level of improvement , a bit of a cup run and promise for next year as his much vaunted youngsters start to catch fire get the cash registers ringing when passes go on sale. That would have given him the money to go and get some big name players to replace/supplement the likes of Ellis , Yeaman , Pryce etc as they came to the end of their careers. He would also be thinking that prospective players would be "knocking the door down" to sign and get involved in the success to come. Quite the opposite of that is now true where there will be pressure on pass sales or , God forbid , we're not even in the SL. Even if we do survive this year just retaining players will be difficult. In my view something has to happen pretty quickly but on the other hand as you say he probably has little choice but to leave it for , say , the next 3 games. I also think that he's probably got an agreement with Radford "written in" where he'll walk when asked rather than be sacked.'"


I would hope for a change of coach after the Widnes game unless we beat both them and Saints.

I suspect it would be easier to attract new players if we had a respected coach.

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Quote: Mrs Barista "Good post, agree with all of it.

I suspect AP had observed at reasonably close quarters the success we had in 04-08; the large crowds, strong merchandise, profitability and highish profile. He probably also thought that he could outwit the dour band of identikit Cox and Evans chairmen round the table at the RFL, and invest relatively little for reasonable returns. What he's found out is
a) this group of middle-aged+ Northern nylon-suited paunchy self-made men with 70s terrace heritage are pretty difficult to break down when they're of one voice
b) their knowledge of the game is actually worth something, along with their genuine club love
c) You get diminishing returns from claiming imminent success and not delivering, so savings become necessary.

What appears not yet to have realised is

Yes, agree entirely with your assessment. It's illustrative of where AP's mind was at the time of his purchase of the club. The thing about AP is that many fans forget he is a businessman first and foremost. He didn't buy Hull FC out of any sentimental attachment, but as a business investment, to make a return.

Unfortunately his due dilligence was lacking as you describe, and he has compounded this by making some terrible decisions.

Your point about culture is an interesting one. Cultural change takes a long time, and above all else it needs to be clearly articulated from the top and cascaded down through the organisation. The most important thing to remember is that culture is changed through actions not words. I've seen many CEOs put out glossy statements about cultural change and organisational shift but then keep on with the same old behaviours. This is totally ineffective in instigating change as people quickly realise that it's just words, and quickly revert to their old behaviours.

Hull FC is a classic example of this. Lots of rousing statements of intent from AP, LR et al but the behaviours stay the same. This is why there's so much discontent at the moment. Ironically given the club strapline, lots of people don't "believe".

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Quote: Lang Park "Yes, agree entirely with your assessment. It's illustrative of where AP's mind was at the time of his purchase of the club. The thing about AP is that many fans forget he is a businessman first and foremost. He didn't buy Hull FC out of any sentimental attachment, but as a business investment, to make a return.

Unfortunately his due dilligence was lacking as you describe, and he has compounded this by making some terrible decisions.

Your point about culture is an interesting one. Cultural change takes a long time, and above all else it needs to be clearly articulated from the top and cascaded down through the organisation. The most important thing to remember is that culture is changed through actions not words. I've seen many CEOs put out glossy statements about cultural change and organisational shift but then keep on with the same old behaviours. This is totally ineffective in instigating change as people quickly realise that it's just words, and quickly revert to their old behaviours.

Hull FC is a classic example of this. Lots of rousing statements of intent from AP, LR et al but the behaviours stay the same. This is why there's so much discontent at the moment. Ironically given the club strapline, lots of people don't "believe".'"

The ironic thing is the culture had started to change under his first 2 years tenure with the introduction of Gentle and McRae. Unfortunately, some of the advice of McRae proved flawed, and his scouting and contracting of players appears to have been cavalier. Pearson looks to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater as a result, and reverted to reliance on the same people who have dwelled inherently within our club infrastructure for years and were a constitutional part of it's culture as a result.

Ergo, the cancer was not cauterised, merely in remission, and we are where we are today. All my opinion, of course.

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Quote: WormInHand "The ironic thing is the culture had started to change under his first 2 years tenure with the introduction of Gentle and McRae. Unfortunately, some of the advice of McRae proved flawed, and his scouting and contracting of players appears to have been cavalier. Pearson looks to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater as a result, and reverted to reliance on the same people who have dwelled inherently within our club infrastructure for years and were a constitutional part of it's culture as a result.

Ergo, the cancer was not cauterised, merely in remission, and we are were we are today. All my opinion, of course.'"

Think you nailed it.

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Quote: Mild Rover "Very much enjoyed the Cox and Evans riff.

In some ways I think things have gone full circle at first team level for Hull. Two important questions now - have lessons been learned? My guess would be yes - I think Pearson's self-confidence, while high, is not at a level that will make him damagingly obdurate. If things don't turn in the next couple of months, he'll make a change. I doubt he'll worry overly about his earlier unequivocal backing of Radford - things change and with them minds. Happens all the time, especially in sport.
The second question is does he have the money to 'go again'? Moran didn't get it right first time at Wire, but he kept ploughing in the cash. He though is very wealthy and was doing it in large part for love. Even with a top coach and an improved culture, your squad probably isn't good enough to deliver on Pearson's early ambitions. To have a realistic shot at top 4 in 2016 or 2017, it looks right now like some more biggish transfer fees would be needed, even along with Abdull, Turgut, HTW et al stepping up.
To me 'culture' and good decision-making, influence where you finish in your 'group' (top 4, bottom half etc) within the league. But which group you're in is mainly down to money. Which is why it is mostly the same wealthy clubs at the top year, after year. Even when somebody like Cas last year shook things up abit, it was always going to be hard for them to back it up.
Long winded way of saying AP's still got a good chance, if he's got the cash - what a chairman saves by buying nylon suits...
I think most fans would settle for just making the 8 over the next few years providing we are showing improvements and building a better squad.

Things can also change pretty quickly when you have the right players and coaches on board. We went from 7th in 2003 to 3rd in 2004 (with injuries hampering our playoff attempt) to cup winners and Grand Finalists in 2005 & 2006. Rovers went from battling to stay up in SL to top 4 in a couple of years. Cas had an incredible year last year. Things can click in to place very quickly its just getting the right people on board that is key.

The other positive for Pearson in the cash front is that the economy is undoubtedly improving, while things are still a struggle for many fans, businesses are back spending on corporate shindigs and sponsorship again, as selling out all the hospitality for the derby weeks in advance shows. That combined with the new SKY deal and 3 extra home games should mean the club at the very least breaks even.

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Quote: UllFC "I think most fans would settle for just making the 8 over the next few years providing we are showing improvements and building a better squad.

Things can also change pretty quickly when you have the right players and coaches on board. We went from 7th in 2003 to 3rd in 2004 (with injuries hampering our playoff attempt) to cup winners and Grand Finalists in 2005 & 2006. Rovers went from battling to stay up in SL to top 4 in a couple of years. Cas had an incredible year last year. Things can click in to place very quickly its just getting the right people on board that is key.

The other positive for Pearson in the cash front is that the economy is undoubtedly improving, while things are still a struggle for many fans, businesses are back spending on corporate shindigs and sponsorship again, as selling out all the hospitality for the derby weeks in advance shows. That combined with the new SKY deal and 3 extra home games should mean the club at the very least breaks even.'"


Things can indeed change very quickly. A bit of luck, a bit of confidence and all this negativity might seem like a huge overreaction by the middle of summer. Sometimes staying the course isn't stubbornness, it's patience.
A pedantic point but the new system will mean 1 or 2 extra home games, rather than 3. 11 before the split and 3 or 4 after, where it was previously 13. Still, it all helps. Pressure for a cap rise might start to grow though - a modest one is probably overdue, even in these low inflation times.

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Quote: Mild Rover "Things can indeed change very quickly. A bit of luck, a bit of confidence and all this negativity might seem like a huge overreaction by the middle of summer. Sometimes staying the course isn't stubbornness, it's patience.
A pedantic point but the new system will mean 1 or 2 extra home games, rather than 3. 11 before the split and 3 or 4 after, where it was previously 13. Still, it all helps. Pressure for a cap rise might start to grow though - a modest one is probably overdue, even in these low inflation times.'"

Agree on the last point. Competitiveness may be increasing (for most teams icon_evil.gif ) but the quality of players and particularly imports has gone backwards. Comparing Saints of 2006 to the squad that won the title last year is interesting.

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Quote: Lang Park "Yes, agree entirely with your assessment. It's illustrative of where AP's mind was at the time of his purchase of the club. The thing about AP is that many fans forget he is a businessman first and foremost. He didn't buy Hull FC out of any sentimental attachment, but as a business investment, to make a return.

Unfortunately his due dilligence was lacking as you describe, and he has compounded this by making some terrible decisions.

Your point about culture is an interesting one. Cultural change takes a long time, and above all else it needs to be clearly articulated from the top and cascaded down through the organisation. The most important thing to remember is that culture is changed through actions not words. I've seen many CEOs put out glossy statements about cultural change and organisational shift but then keep on with the same old behaviours. This is totally ineffective in instigating change as people quickly realise that it's just words, and quickly revert to their old behaviours.

Hull FC is a classic example of this. Lots of rousing statements of intent from AP, LR et al but the behaviours stay the same. This is why there's so much discontent at the moment. Ironically given the club strapline, lots of people don't "believe".'"


Part of the problem I think is our identity. Wigan are for the want of a better word "warriors", or at least formidable/physical bruising competitors/borderline cheats (at the ruck anyway). Leeds are the modern day champions, never know when they're beaten, supplementing an endless homegrown pipeline with a sprinkling of top quality like Cuthbertson. Saints are the entertainers/comeback kings. We are the "sleeping giants" or put more crudely, the eternal disappointments.

How do you break out of that? When the chips are invariably down, the top clubs will dig deep and recall who they are and what they do, but so will we. Ellis has mentioned it before. Part of this is recruitment-led. In the pack for instance we go for professionals like Ellis and Mini, nice guys like Paea and Feka, Castleford pretty boys like Watts and Westerman (bit of licence there but you get my drift). We need a couple of borderline mental rough-as-s forwards who'll niggle and scrap all day long. Was discussing this with Mr B yesterday and since Shayne McMenemy can't remember anyone pushing the limits. Our "spark" in this department these days is limited to the competitiveness of Jordan Rankin who's probably leaving. I do think we need to be looking for some "mongrel" in the off season. And we need obviously a coach who commands respect.

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A mongrel or two would be good. More importantly I'd like to see us sign winners. And leaders. I think Pryce has been a good signing so far and will hopefully bring these traits out in the youngsters.

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Quote: C for Cuckoo "A mongrel or two would be good. More importantly I'd like to see us sign winners. And leaders. I think Pryce has been a good signing so far and will hopefully bring these traits out in the youngsters.'"

Pryce has been class, agreed. I'd hand him responsibility for our attack and let him shape it as he wants.

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Quote: Mrs Barista "Agree on the last point. Competitiveness may be increasing (for most teams
I'm not sure that we can now or for the forseeable get anywhere near competing for quality players with the NRL. But if I was a SL player, I'd be asking questions of my union. 2 fewer top flight clubs (mitigated a bit by the top Championship clubs getting more cash), a longer season, a new tv deal - and yet another real terms cut in the wage budget. If the clubs are more sustainable that is some pay-off, but I'd still be wanting a bit more of the money pie.

The competitiveness thing is good for the league. But the wealthy clubs will start wanting to exploit their economic advantages more directly if things tighten up too much.

I'm very much in favour of a flat cap, but it should rise a little, occasionally.

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Quote: Mild Rover "I'm not sure that we can now or for the forseeable get anywhere near competing for quality players with the NRL. But if I was a SL player, I'd be asking questions of my union. 2 fewer top flight clubs (mitigated a bit by the top Championship clubs getting more cash), a longer season, a new tv deal - and yet another real terms cut in the wage budget. If the clubs are more sustainable that is some pay-off, but I'd still be wanting a bit more of the money pie.

The competitiveness thing is good for the league. But the wealthy clubs will start wanting to exploit their economic advantages more directly if things tighten up too much.

I'm very much in favour of a flat cap, but it should rise a little, occasionally.'"

Well,you are a Yorkie.

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Warrington Wolves Break Saints..
1965
POSTSONLINEREGISTRATIONSRECORD
19.64M +11,411 80,15414,103
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Matches on TV
Sat 2nd Nov
MINT2024 3 England M34-16Samoa M
WINT2024 2 ENGLAND W82-0WALES W
Sun 27th Oct
MINT2024 2 England M34-18Samoa M
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
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