| FORUMS > Hull FC > Has Steve Bruce joined Allam in the hated stakes |
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Firstly I think Steve Bruce's comments are said with good intentions because of the media attention against Evans but ill advised because as previous contributors have said would he be prepared to sign him if he was good enough. There would be a massive out cry against I am fairly sure.
As regards the conviction. I agree with others that it is difficult to understand, after reading the evidence in a previous post, why one was convicted and the other not.
Should he be allowed to play football again? Yes. Why? Because as it has been pointed by others there are players who have committed crimes and have been to prison and are now playing or have played after serving their time. He has served his. However what club in their right mind would sign him and risk the backlash of the supporters and probably loss of income to the club, after all the media attention and the nature of the crime?
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| Quote: *1865* "Rehabilitation is a right. Showing you the flaws in your argument is not inflammatory.'"
Rehabilitation is NOT a right. It is a choice made by the offender.
In the full sense of the word rehabilitation can only be achieved by the offender taking full responsibility for their crime and demonstrating their contrition by word as well as deed. Rehabilitation is not 'ours to give'.
There are very few professions that would welcome a convicted rapist returning to their previous career path full stop and even fewer that would do so without the offender having shown any remorse or made any apology to their victim. Soccer stars are are idolised by many and, given Evans' attitude, it would send entirely the wrong message to the youth of today for this convicted rapist to be welcomed back into the fold as if he is blameless.
Regardless of individuals' opinions regarding the rights and wrongs of this case, he remains a convicted rapist whose appeal was thrown out. If/until that status changes that is how he must be judged. As he believes he is innocent, and has shown no contrition, nor made no apology to his victim, how can he undertake his rehabilitation? He doesn't admit there is a crime for him to undertake rehabilitation from. |
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| Quote: WormInHand "Rehabilitation is NOT a right. It is a choice made by the offender.'"
Every person who meets the criteria has a right to undergo rehabilitation, so yes, it's his choice to make but having made that choice it is no less his right
Quote: WormInHand "In the full sense of the word rehabilitation can only be achieved by the offender taking full responsibility for their crime and demonstrating their contrition by word as well as deed. Rehabilitation is not 'ours to give'.'"
That's a romantic idea, but it's not how the law sees it at all.
Quote: WormInHand "There are very few professions that would welcome a convicted rapist returning to their previous career path full stop and even fewer that would do so without the offender having shown any remorse or made any apology to their victim. Soccer stars are are idolised by many and, given Evans' attitude, it would send entirely the wrong message to the youth of today for this convicted rapist to be welcomed back into the fold as if he is blameless.'"
Again, why should he apologise for something he knows he hasn't done?
Also, football is littered with convicted criminals, as is rugby. Some have even killed and been accepted back into the game.
Quote: WormInHand "Regardless of individuals' opinions regarding the rights and wrongs of this case, he remains a convicted rapist whose appeal was thrown out. If/until that status changes that is how he must be judged. As he believes he is innocent, and has shown no contrition, nor made no apology to his victim, how can he undertake his rehabilitation? He doesn't admit there is a crime for him to undertake rehabilitation from.'"
Again, under the law he doesn't have to. You could even argue that because he knows he didn't commit a crime, why does he have to be rehabilitated at all? |
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| Quote: *1865* "Every person who meets the criteria has a right to undergo rehabilitation, so yes, it's his choice to make but having made that choice it is no less his right'"
Ah - you're talking about the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. I didn't realise, as Evans [idoesn't[/i meet the criteria. His conviction was for five years, so will never be spent. I was talking about the literal meaning of rehabilitation, which means the willingness, ability and activity of a person following a trauma to reintegrate themselves back into society. In the case of a criminal, to atone for that crime and demonstrate remorse.
Quote: *1865* "That's a romantic idea, but it's not how the law sees it at all. '"
Romantic? I'd offer literal, the Act not being applicable in this case.
Quote: *1865* "Again, why should he apologise for something he knows he hasn't done?
Also, football is littered with convicted criminals, as is rugby. Some have even killed and been accepted back into the game.'"
He [iknows[/i he hasn't done? The jury who passed verdict, and the judges who rejected his appeal don't agree with his [iopinion[/i. I'm not commenting on whether he should be eligible for another role in soccer or anywhere else. That decision is down to the prospective employer, not I, you or he.
Quote: *1865* "Again, under the law he doesn't have to.'"
I don't know what you mean by this. Under law, he doesn't have to what?
Quote: *1865* "You could even argue that because he knows he didn't commit a crime, why does he have to be rehabilitated at all?'"
By maintaining his innocence he clearly does not believe he has anything to rehabilitate himself from, agreed. However, society and the law disagree, again, with his opinion. He remains a convicted rapist at the current time. Incidentally, still with more than two years of his sentence to serve. He is currently out on licence only. |
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Quote: knockersbumpMKII "Have you read the transcripts yet then sheeple???? Or are you going to come out with an educated opinion or just carry on talking b0llocks???'"
https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-che ... dwyn-evans
I've read this. I have also I'd imagine sat through more court cases than you. (But that's just an educated guess).
Bottom line is 12 men & women sat and listened to ALL the evidence. Having done that they decided that the man who sneaked into the hotel room and decided to take advantage of a clearly (going by the experts opinion here) drunk woman was guilty of rape. That is British justice system working. It's far from perfect. But it's far far better than most systems in the world.
That makes Mr Evans a convicted rapist.
Now he has not served his time. He has served half and has been allowed to serve the remaining part in the community. It's now I struggle with the what job he can and can't do. Certain jobs, police, teacher, health worker, etc have it written in contract / law that you can't go back once convicted. Football isn't one of them. Oldham Athletic well know this. Lee Hughes killer of a person. Served his prison time and played for them.
What crimes can or can't you go back to playing football again after committing?
Now the PFA need to assess this and lets it's members know and quickly.
Sport is littered with convicts. Mike Tyson anyone? Phil the Power Taylor? Where is the line drawn? Is it only team sports? Is it only football? That's the debate we should be having.
Also the other consideration is the victim. I doubt anyone from either side has stopped to think of her through the past few weeks that Mr Evans has been on e front pages. |
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Quote: knockersbumpMKII "Have you read the transcripts yet then sheeple???? Or are you going to come out with an educated opinion or just carry on talking b0llocks???'"
https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-che ... dwyn-evans
I've read this. I have also I'd imagine sat through more court cases than you. (But that's just an educated guess).
Bottom line is 12 men & women sat and listened to ALL the evidence. Having done that they decided that the man who sneaked into the hotel room and decided to take advantage of a clearly (going by the experts opinion here) drunk woman was guilty of rape. That is British justice system working. It's far from perfect. But it's far far better than most systems in the world.
That makes Mr Evans a convicted rapist.
Now he has not served his time. He has served half and has been allowed to serve the remaining part in the community. It's now I struggle with the what job he can and can't do. Certain jobs, police, teacher, health worker, etc have it written in contract / law that you can't go back once convicted. Football isn't one of them. Oldham Athletic well know this. Lee Hughes killer of a person. Served his prison time and played for them.
What crimes can or can't you go back to playing football again after committing?
Now the PFA need to assess this and lets it's members know and quickly.
Sport is littered with convicts. Mike Tyson anyone? Phil the Power Taylor? Where is the line drawn? Is it only team sports? Is it only football? That's the debate we should be having.
Also the other consideration is the victim. I doubt anyone from either side has stopped to think of her through the past few weeks that Mr Evans has been on e front pages. | |
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| Quote: WormInHand "Ah - you're talking about the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. I didn't realise, as Evans [idoesn't[/i meet the criteria. His conviction was for five years, so will never be spent. I was talking about the literal meaning of rehabilitation, which means the willingness, ability and activity of a person following a trauma to reintegrate themselves back into society. In the case of a criminal, to atone for that crime and demonstrate remorse.
Romantic? I'd offer literal, the Act not being applicable in this case.
He [iknows[/i he hasn't done? The jury who passed verdict, and the judges who rejected his appeal don't agree with his [iopinion[/i. I'm not commenting on whether he should be eligible for another role in soccer or anywhere else. That decision is down to the prospective employer, not I, you or he.
I don't know what you mean by this. Under law, he doesn't have to what?
By maintaining his innocence he clearly does not believe he has anything to rehabilitate himself from, agreed. However, society and the law disagree, again, with his opinion. He remains a convicted rapist at the current time. Incidentally, still with more than two years of his sentence to serve. He is currently out on licence only.'" I'll happily concede this point, I certainly don't know the technicalities of the law, the term rehabilitation has been used by solicitors, MP's and others so I used it.
However, my main point is that he should be allowed to continue his career as there's no rule within football from preventing it (rightly or wrongly). That is an important part of any rehabilitation. I do feel there is a frenzy about this whipped up in the main part by the media and there's a mob culture that will do anything to stop him resuming his career, highlighted by the ridiculous petition set up by Oldham [ifans[/i which reached 70,000+ meanwhile only 4,181 of these [isupporters[/i bothered to turn up yesterday.
If we're not careful, Ched Evans will end up becoming the victim in all this, now whether he raped her or not, he certainly shouldn't become that. |
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| Quote: @airlie_bird "httpsdecided to take advantage of a clearly (going by the experts opinion here) drunk woman was guilty of rape. That is British justice system working. It's far from perfect. But it's far far better than most systems in the world.
That is the pertinent part. If she was incapable of giving consent to Evans, then she must have been incapable of given consent to anyone. So there should have been two convictions.
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| Quote: Large Paws "
She met with (I think his name was MacDonald) in the street. He was as far as I know alone. She was also alone. One thing led to another and they ended up at the hotel. Not forced. He and she engage in sex. Consensual? One has to assume at that point it was accepted by the jury that it was. She with him alone in a hotel room. What I would imagine she didn't expect would be for his mate to trick his way into them room (read the appeal verdict) and then for him to take advantage and for his mates to record it through a window.
The appeal judge deals with her intoxication and all the other "issues" and concluded the jury made an honest decision and the trial judge didn't sway the decision. As I say that's our justice system. It works generally well. You only have to attend any crown or magistrates court on any given day to see how many cases pass through them and compare that to how many miscarriages of justice we have. It works and it works well. Once we start to disregard the jury's verdicts then we will have wide spread anarchy.
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| Quote: @airlie_bird "She met with (I think his name was MacDonald) in the street. He was as far as I know alone. She was also alone. One thing led to another and they ended up at the hotel. Not forced. He and she engage in sex. Consensual? One has to assume at that point it was accepted by the jury that it was. She with him alone in a hotel room. What I would imagine she didn't expect would be for his mate to trick his way into them room (read the appeal verdict) and then for him to take advantage and for his mates to record it through a window.
The appeal judge deals with her intoxication and all the other "issues" and concluded the jury made an honest decision and the trial judge didn't sway the decision. As I say that's our justice system. It works generally well. You only have to attend any crown or magistrates court on any given day to see how many cases pass through them and compare that to how many miscarriages of justice we have. It works and it works well. Once we start to disregard the jury's verdicts then we will have wide spread anarchy.'"
But also once we stop scrutinising it, we open it to abuse. |
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| Quote: *1865* "But also once we stop scrutinising it, we open it to abuse.'"
Very true, and scrutinise we should, where and when it's apprpriate. In this case it's been over scrutinised simply because he's a footballer. If he was a builder, bin man etc it wouldn't be. We have had trial by jury. We have had a failed appeal. And now he's hoping to over turn those verdicts. If he does (which I doubt very much he will) win an appeal then it's a whole new ball game. But I have yet to read anything that makes me feel he will clear his name. That's not to say he has to accept the decision, but all of us on here should as we do not know enough to question it.
Generally speaking though when you have 12 totally independent jury members it is very hard to claim any abuse. It takes a lot of work by police CPS barristers, QCs etc to get a case to trial. I'm sure any abuse would have been recognised way before the appeal.
Even during a trial the police and CPS don't stop the work. So yes by all means scrutinise but once all avenues are exhausted accept decisions which ever way they go. |
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| Quote: @airlie_bird "Very true, and scrutinise we should, where and when it's apprpriate. In this case it's been over scrutinised simply because he's a footballer. If he was a builder, bin man etc it wouldn't be. We have had trial by jury. We have had a failed appeal. And now he's hoping to over turn those verdicts. If he does (which I doubt very much he will) win an appeal then it's a whole new ball game. But I have yet to read anything that makes me feel he will clear his name. That's not to say he has to accept the decision, but all of us on here should as we do not know enough to question it.
Generally speaking though when you have 12 totally independent jury members it is very hard to claim any abuse. It takes a lot of work by police CPS barristers, QCs etc to get a case to trial. I'm sure any abuse would have been recognised way before the appeal.
Even during a trial the police and CPS don't stop the work. So yes by all means scrutinise but once all avenues are exhausted accept decisions which ever way they go.'"
Totally agree about how trials come about and how they go once they start.I have done jury service twice and its a minefield once it starts,points of law is the big one,lost count how many times we went out. |
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| Quote: @airlie_bird "
I, also, am reasonably au fait with our C.J. system, and all its foibles. I have seen acquittals in cases where, on the face of it, there was far more 'real' evidence than 'opinion' on whether consent was, or wasn't given, or capable of being given.
Evans obviously believes it was given, and that, I suspect, is the reason he believes he is innocent. Just my opinion.
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Rehabilitation should be afforded to all, no matter what the crime. That doesn't mean that certain criminals should be let back into society at all or as if nothing happened but as a very famous & one of the greatest minds of his time once said
"A society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals."
It's as applicable today (probably more so) as it was almost 150 years ago...
We punish but fail to rehabilitate & treat criminals and that is one of the many prime reasons why criminals continue on in a life of crime after their punishment, much of which perpetuates itself through generations and as we are in a broken society with crime increasing (certainly in this country) turning the tide just isn't going to happen any time soon.
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| Quote: knockersbumpMKII "Rehabilitation should be afforded to all, no matter what the crime. That doesn't mean that certain criminals should be let back into society at all or as if nothing happened but as a very famous & one of the greatest minds of his time once said
"A society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals."
It's as applicable today (probably more so) as it was almost 150 years ago...
We punish but fail to rehabilitate & treat criminals and that is one of the many prime reasons why criminals continue on in a life of crime after their punishment, much of which perpetuates itself through generations and as we are in a broken society with crime increasing (certainly in this country) turning the tide just isn't going to happen any time soon.'"
Well, quite. But the desire to enter into rehabilitation has to be there with the individual, otherwise it will fail. Ask any recovering drug addict, alcoholic or, indeed, released prisoner who has no intention of returning to gaol.
But Evans believes he is innocent. Therefore he doesn't recognise the need for rehabilitation. How can you recover from a crime you're accused of perpetuating if you don't accept a crime has been committed? |
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Ched Evans does have the right to look for work again. Even to try and resurrect his football career.
The thing is, though, the fans/public/sponsors etc also have a right to say whether or not they want him at any particular club. This is just as they do with any player, it's just that in this case the weight of opinion appears to be heavy enough to actually have some ramifications for the clubs so far. Football has been morally bankrupt for a fair while, which is why his proposed moves have broken down because of the financial impact, not any moral judgement by the clubs concerned.
To me, there's a subtle difference between somebody being banned from doing something, and somebody not being wanted. A possible analogy would be that once Rolf Harris is released he is free to paint or make TV programmes, but don't expect people to queue up to buy/watch.
As is so often the case on here, people need to remember that a sports club is very different to any other type of business/employer, and one of these differences is the amount and type of stakeholders they have.
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