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Quote: "His decision making with ball in hand isn't good enough to be a top SL full back. I lost count the amount of times he took space away from the centre/winger and just died with the ball.
Connor on the other hand can pick a pass, and 9 times out of 10 picks the right option.
Shaul is 29 now. I don't think we can expect more than what he already offers.'"
Shaul has consistently offered more in attack for what he does extremely well than any other FB in SL, what other FB in the last 8 years has been able to open defences with his electric off the mark pace and elusiveness in open play on a regular basis?
Would you not say that his inability to develop in the way you're stating is down to the coaches that have been around him for the 7 years (discounting this year obvs) since he broke into the first team? Radford was the assistant coach with Last doing his thing, Shaul had just 5 appearances IIRC when he played for us at wembley, Gentle was already on the way out according to some on here by the September and radford was running the show in all but name.
So Radford got hold of him at 21 and just look at how many players that have come through our system in skill positions that have flourished/progressed under his and last's tenure, that will be absolutely no-one. Shaul as well as Logan, Crooks, Abdull, Hadley even Lineham (though coming from West Yorks), all fallen by the wayside or not improved despite their crackerjack starts, not just because of the individuals themselves but because of bang average coaching.
Yes, Shaul is 29, and it's far harder to change things, but writing him off and saying he can't improve is not just premature, it's oh so predictable from some who are all ready to dump on players without even giving them a chance!
As for Connor, yes, he can pick the right pass most of the time (I'd say more 8/10 but whatever), yes he offers something in attack that Shaul will never have, Connor is never scoring this try in a million years https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-league/40763731 , that he can read things differenty to Shaul in those situations that we see as his strengths, I won't argue from that standpoint.
However, Shaul is by far the better defender, he backs up more, he can scoot away from dummy half or open field play that Connor could only dream about. Connor is lazy at FB when the ball is coming from a kick, has he ever made a single break from FB from a kick?
Both players have their strengths and weaknesses, I would like to see Shaul get a chance to go back to FB after having some time under BH, will that happen, probaby not, but discounting that he can improve in certain areas under a former international FB, and at the same time ignore that Connor has his flaws in attack and defence at FB, just as Shaul has but in different ways, is in my opinion shortsighted.
Let's support him after such a horrendous time with his injury, I hope he can get a place in the side, whether that be at FB, interchange hooker or utility choice on the bench. If he can't, or isn't able to get back to full fitness then we have no room for sentiment, until that time comes we be positive and give him as much as fans can do the support players deserve. |
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Quote: "His decision making with ball in hand isn't good enough to be a top SL full back. I lost count the amount of times he took space away from the centre/winger and just died with the ball.
Connor on the other hand can pick a pass, and 9 times out of 10 picks the right option.
Shaul is 29 now. I don't think we can expect more than what he already offers.'"
Shaul has consistently offered more in attack for what he does extremely well than any other FB in SL, what other FB in the last 8 years has been able to open defences with his electric off the mark pace and elusiveness in open play on a regular basis?
Would you not say that his inability to develop in the way you're stating is down to the coaches that have been around him for the 7 years (discounting this year obvs) since he broke into the first team? Radford was the assistant coach with Last doing his thing, Shaul had just 5 appearances IIRC when he played for us at wembley, Gentle was already on the way out according to some on here by the September and radford was running the show in all but name.
So Radford got hold of him at 21 and just look at how many players that have come through our system in skill positions that have flourished/progressed under his and last's tenure, that will be absolutely no-one. Shaul as well as Logan, Crooks, Abdull, Hadley even Lineham (though coming from West Yorks), all fallen by the wayside or not improved despite their crackerjack starts, not just because of the individuals themselves but because of bang average coaching.
Yes, Shaul is 29, and it's far harder to change things, but writing him off and saying he can't improve is not just premature, it's oh so predictable from some who are all ready to dump on players without even giving them a chance!
As for Connor, yes, he can pick the right pass most of the time (I'd say more 8/10 but whatever), yes he offers something in attack that Shaul will never have, Connor is never scoring this try in a million years https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-league/40763731 , that he can read things differenty to Shaul in those situations that we see as his strengths, I won't argue from that standpoint.
However, Shaul is by far the better defender, he backs up more, he can scoot away from dummy half or open field play that Connor could only dream about. Connor is lazy at FB when the ball is coming from a kick, has he ever made a single break from FB from a kick?
Both players have their strengths and weaknesses, I would like to see Shaul get a chance to go back to FB after having some time under BH, will that happen, probaby not, but discounting that he can improve in certain areas under a former international FB, and at the same time ignore that Connor has his flaws in attack and defence at FB, just as Shaul has but in different ways, is in my opinion shortsighted.
Let's support him after such a horrendous time with his injury, I hope he can get a place in the side, whether that be at FB, interchange hooker or utility choice on the bench. If he can't, or isn't able to get back to full fitness then we have no room for sentiment, until that time comes we be positive and give him as much as fans can do the support players deserve. | |
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| Quote: "Shaul has consistently offered more in attack for what he does extremely well than any other FB in SL, what other FB in the last 8 years has been able to open defences with his electric off the mark pace and elusiveness in open play on a regular basis?
Would you not say that his inability to develop in the way you're stating is down to the coaches that have been around him for the 7 years (discounting this year obvs) since he broke into the first team? Radford was the assistant coach with Last doing his thing, Shaul had just 5 appearances IIRC when he played for us at wembley, Gentle was already on the way out according to some on here by the September and radford was running the show in all but name.
So Radford got hold of him at 21 and just look at how many players that have come through our system in skill positions that have flourished/progressed under his and last's tenure, that will be absolutely no-one. Shaul as well as Logan, Crooks, Abdull, Hadley even Lineham (though coming from West Yorks), all fallen by the wayside or not improved despite their crackerjack starts, not just because of the individuals themselves but because of bang average coaching.
Yes, Shaul is 29, and it's far harder to change things, but writing him off and saying he can't improve is not just premature, it's oh so predictable from some who are all ready to dump on players without even giving them a chance!
As for Connor, yes, he can pick the right pass most of the time (I'd say more 8/10 but whatever), yes he offers something in attack that Shaul will never have, Connor is never scoring this try in a million years
Good argument.
What was the try you tried to link to? It wouldn’t work for me.
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| Quote: "Shaul has consistently offered more in attack for what he does extremely well than any other FB in SL, what other FB in the last 8 years has been able to open defences with his electric off the mark pace and elusiveness in open play on a regular basis?
Would you not say that his inability to develop in the way you're stating is down to the coaches that have been around him for the 7 years (discounting this year obvs) since he broke into the first team? Radford was the assistant coach with Last doing his thing, Shaul had just 5 appearances IIRC when he played for us at wembley, Gentle was already on the way out according to some on here by the September and radford was running the show in all but name.
So Radford got hold of him at 21 and just look at how many players that have come through our system in skill positions that have flourished/progressed under his and last's tenure, that will be absolutely no-one. Shaul as well as Logan, Crooks, Abdull, Hadley even Lineham (though coming from West Yorks), all fallen by the wayside or not improved despite their crackerjack starts, not just because of the individuals themselves but because of bang average coaching.
Yes, Shaul is 29, and it's far harder to change things, but writing him off and saying he can't improve is not just premature, it's oh so predictable from some who are all ready to dump on players without even giving them a chance!
As for Connor, yes, he can pick the right pass most of the time (I'd say more 8/10 but whatever), yes he offers something in attack that Shaul will never have, Connor is never scoring this try in a million years
My initial point is that his decision making isn't good enough to be a top bracket SL full back. This issue would only be amplified at hooker.
Of course I want him to come back and play his part. But I don't see his future as a hooker, he should be outside back cover.
To say Radford didn't improve anyone is just wrong.
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| Quote: "Good argument.
What was the try you tried to link to? It wouldn’t work for me.'"
It was the Leeds CC semifinal where we smashed them and Shaul scored from 70 yards out, just one example of many where Shaul has a huge advantage in attack that Connor or simply doesn't have, it's swings and roundabouts. For all that Connor adds he also has his pitfalls, IMO I think on balance that Shaul is the better fullback, he offers equally in attack, just in a different way, but and again it's an opinion, I think he has the superior defence.
I just don't like that some are saying he can't do this or that because of his age or whatever, he's had a prop forward coaching him for 7 years whose idea of a winning formula was more smash bang wallop kick to the corner and rely on indivdual brilliance, if we have a coach who played in a skill position and can coach that (Lineham said it was a revelation been coached by BH after he'd left Hull) then you'd like to think that he (shaul) can take some of that going forward, even if it isn't at FB
This is just chatting about possibilities for Shaul and the club, if Shaul gets fit and we use him as interchange then that has a bearing on Johnstone, if Shaul is just a squad player going forward with him not getting regular first team games then does Shaul consider a move somewhere else? | | | |
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| Quote: "My initial point is that his decision making isn't good enough to be a top bracket SL full back. This issue would only be amplified at hooker.
Of course I want him to come back and play his part. But I don't see his future as a hooker, he should be outside back cover.
To say Radford didn't improve anyone is just wrong.'"
I didn't say he didn't improve anyone, I said he didn't improve any of the skill positions and we lost youngsters coming through because of his way of coaching and attitude to signing players from outside the club more often than not as well as not using players correctly/to their strengths or in sides that were overall just poorly coached. Players who want to learn and have endeavour to succeed wil improve as they get older within a team environment, that doesn't mean that is all from the coach.
As for your last point, I understand that view, I personally would rather have Shaul as an interchange dummy half for now IF he can get fit and prove himself, the problem as I see it is that we have a great young FB in Wynn but Connor (unless injured) has that tied down, do we culture Wynn as the future at FB or, as we've seen in the recent past, he leaves to get a chance of first team experience elsewhere, it's just replicating what happened with Logan in many ways. | | |
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I don't think Shaul has ever recovered from the 'mistimed' tackle at Fev. He's not been the same since.
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| Quote: "His decision making with ball in hand isn't good enough to be a top SL full back. I lost count the amount of times he took space away from the centre/winger and just died with the ball.
Connor on the other hand can pick a pass, and 9 times out of 10 picks the right option.
Shaul is 29 now. I don't think we can expect more than what he already offers.'"
9 times out of 10 nonsense
For starters he's threw at least 3 inceptions that's led to try ( 1 which cost us a cup final place )
Remember him bombing 2 trys against catalan due to forward passes
Also he cost us the game at Wigan giving a daft penalty in front of the sticks with the game all level
Yet people always Ignore connors major errors for some strange reason and still think he's god to some  | | |
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| Quote: "9 times out of 10 nonsense
For starters he's threw at least 3 inceptions that's led to try ( 1 which cost us a cup final place )
Remember him bombing 2 trys against catalan due to forward passes
Also he cost us the game at Wigan giving a daft penalty in front of the sticks with the game all level
Yet people always Ignore connors major errors for some strange reason and still think he's god to some ![]()
This thread is about Jamie, not Jake but please remember every player has a mistake in them and let's not forget how many pieces of individual brilliance he has created tries from.
Jamie is a great open field runner, he can pass but I think he's no longer our no. 1 fullback when everyone is fit.
I like others think he'd make a great running hooker akin to Daryl Clarke.
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| Quote: "I don't think Shaul has ever recovered from the 'mistimed' tackle at Fev. He's not been the same since.'"
Mental scars can last a long time, it was an absolute 'car crash' of an impact (it wasn't a tackle), one that can and does end a career, the ref doing nothing pretty much led to how that game unfolded.
Not sure how much it afffected Shaul for similar scenarios since, but even if we don't consciously think about it in the moments leading up to similar, if it's in the back of your mind, you're more likely to change how you aproach that same scenario from a self preservation POV, even if the liklihood of it happening again is extremely unlikely. | | |
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| Quote: "Mental scars can last a long time, it was an absolute 'car crash' of an impact (it wasn't a tackle), one that can and does end a career, the ref doing nothing pretty much led to how that game unfolded.
Not sure how much it afffected Shaul for similar scenarios since, but even if we don't consciously think about it in the moments leading up to similar, if it's in the back of your mind, you're more likely to change how you aproach that same scenario from a self preservation POV, even if the liklihood of it happening again is extremely unlikely.'"
Which is why I raise the point. It is my belief that it has been possible to see a change in his game, since that evening. | | |
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| Quote: "Which is why I raise the point. It is my belief that it has been possible to see a change in his game, since that evening.'"
Can you point specifically to when this is noticeable and what exactly what we're loooking for? | | |
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| Quote: "Can you point specifically to when this is noticeable and what exactly what we're loooking for?'"
Might be just me, but I think he is less direct when he takes and then returns the ball. He appears to me to be reluctant to run it in and dances across the line a lot. I realise he has had concussions as well which may affect his game. | | |
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| Quote: "Might be just me, but I think he is less direct when he takes and then returns the ball. He appears to me to be reluctant to run it in and dances across the line a lot. I realise he has had concussions as well which may affect his game.'"
Might that not be that in some circumstances he's looking for a gap to break through instead of just running into two/three defenders and in doing so not only loses any potential avenue but also because of his stature means he gets pushed back.
Could that actually be he's thinking more about finding the gap before going into contact as well as not wanting to be pushed/lifted back in the tackle losing ground.
The last few years we've not been pulling up any trees and the overall team performances have been at times diabolical, the overall impact of that can also influence how a player might perform, particularly if they feel under pressure from the coach or pressure from themselves due to their afiliation with the coach.
I understand what you're saying and it's something that can weigh on people's minds after traumatic events, but even the person who has had that event happen to them might not realise they've changed specifically because of that, or even admit to doing x or y differently. And correlation isn't causation, what I said above could also be valid.
either way, I hope he gets back to full fitness and can be allowed to prove himself in whatever position that might be, I think we've missed his explosiveness in open field play and his ability to track back for kicks quickly and get us on the front foot, something that Connor doesn't do, mostly because he ambles back for kicks and is never in a hurry to take the ball up. | | |
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Might that not be that in some circumstances he's looking for a gap to break through instead of just running into two/three defenders and in doing so not only loses any potential avenue but also because of his stature means he gets pushed back.
Could that actually be he's thinking more about finding the gap before going into contact as well as not wanting to be pushed/lifted back in the tackle losing ground
Possibly, but I think he does it more now than he used to.
[either way, I hope he gets back to full fitness and can be allowed to prove himself in whatever position that might be.
Me too
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| Quote: "Might that not be that in some circumstances he's looking for a gap to break through instead of just running into two/three defenders and in doing so not only loses any potential avenue but also because of his stature means he gets pushed back.
Could that actually be he's thinking more about finding the gap before going into contact as well as not wanting to be pushed/lifted back in the tackle losing ground
Possibly, but I think he does it more now than he used to.
[either way, I hope he gets back to full fitness and can be allowed to prove himself in whatever position that might be.
Me too'"
I agree.
To be fair most Full Backs return the ball by running across the line and looking for the gap. Not many have the strength to run hard and straight at the oncoming defence and risk being lifted back over the in-goal line. | | | |
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