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| Quote bonaire="bonaire"Tackling in todays game is normally done by three players.
You dont see Daryl Clark making 50 odd tackles per game.His game is based on running .
The role is changing.Look at HKR two very effective nines who are not known for their defence.
In any case Shaul can tackle but his speed off the mark and elusive running make him ideal in this position'"
Mcshane, Clark and Roby average about 40 tackles a game. Parcel about 25-30.
Shaul is going to have to work his socks off in the middle.
He was criticised for his decision making at full back. I don't see it getting any better shifting him to 9.
Playing hooker is much more than scooting. I'd love to be proven wrong, but just can't see it.
I'd have him as wing/full back cover. He can still scoot from the wing, he'd help us with our exit sets for sure. | | |
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| Quote bonaire="bonaire"Tackling in todays game is normally done by three players.
You dont see Daryl Clark making 50 odd tackles per game.His game is based on running .
The role is changing.Look at HKR two very effective nines who are not known for their defence.
In any case Shaul can tackle but his speed off the mark and elusive running make him ideal in this position'"
So what are these "missed tackles" we keep seeing in the stats? According to you they should never happen. | | | |
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| Quote ccs="ccs"... until teams start targeting him, then we'll see how good he is.'"
So you're judging his ability to make tackles before he even has a chance to prove otherwise? We know Jamie can tackle, that's not in doubt, and if he can meet the attacker sooner because he has greater speed off the line, then he meets the attacker before they get a chance to get up a head of steam, this makes a significant difference as you would (or should) know.
And do teams target Houghton, or does Houghton position himself to make tackles? If we are using Shaul as an impact hooker does he need to be making the same number of tackles per minute/set that Houghton does, isn't his impact/speed meant to take workload off the forwards in attack (and making their forwards work harder defensively) such that they are a bit more rested for defensive duties, this is a symbiotic thing, just as DH ability to give forwards a break by making more tackles.
Whilst Danny is a fantastic tackler, this is 90% of his game, he does the amount of tackles because he rarely gets spelled and that has a detrimental impact on him and the team overall. Just because he can make 50-60 tackles in a game doesn't make that the most effective use of what he could potentially do. The more minutes/work making tackles he makes, the more detrimental effect on his ability, that's not his fault, that's simply fatigue, and from that increases chance of injury and later season fatigue. | | |
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| Quote BumpyMcbump="BumpyMcbump"So you're judging his ability to make tackles before he even has a chance to prove otherwise? '" No, just common sense.
Someone who has never played hooker in SL is an unknown quantity, if he can cope with being targeted, then he's proved himself.
Sorry it's been a short reply, just trying not to bore people to death. | | |
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| Quote mwindass="mwindass"Mcshane, Clark and Roby average about 40 tackles a game. Parcel about 25-30.
Shaul is going to have to work his socks off in the middle.
He was criticised for his decision making at full back. I don't see it getting any better shifting him to 9.
Playing hooker is much more than scooting. I'd love to be proven wrong, but just can't see it.
I'd have him as wing/full back cover. He can still scoot from the wing, he'd help us with our exit sets for sure.'"
What was the criticism on decision making, you mean in attack in the final 20? Given he had Radford as a coach for the formative years of his Hull tenure is this really surprising?
Hodgson is a smart coach, one who played at the highest level in a skill position, Radford didn't, maybe, just maybe Shaul will learn something for any role he gets the chance at, if we get a rejuvenated Shaul with some added skills to his game then that's a big plus for the club.
If he doesn't progress or there's simply no role for him, he's a squad player, could he accept that, would he want to move somewhere were he'll get regular game time, that's what I'd be concerned about | | | |
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| Quote ccs="ccs"No, just common sense.
Someone who has never played hooker in SL is an unknown quantity, if he can cope with being targeted, then he's proved himself.
Sorry it's been a short reply, just trying not to bore people to death.'"
I don't see your comment as being common sense though, you're pre judging, you've ignored that he's a good open field tackler and what he has been doing at FB and his main pluses are fairly aligned to being a dummy half, not all but some, hence why people have stated they think it could be a role for him going forward.
I think you and others are writing him off too soon. | | |
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| Quote BumpyMcbump="BumpyMcbump"What was the criticism on decision making, you mean in attack in the final 20? Given he had Radford as a coach for the formative years of his Hull tenure is this really surprising?
Hodgson is a smart coach, one who played at the highest level in a skill position, Radford didn't, maybe, just maybe Shaul will learn something for any role he gets the chance at, if we get a rejuvenated Shaul with some added skills to his game then that's a big plus for the club.
If he doesn't progress or there's simply no role for him, he's a squad player, could he accept that, would he want to move somewhere were he'll get regular game time, that's what I'd be concerned about'"
His decision making with ball in hand isn't good enough to be a top SL full back. I lost count the amount of times he took space away from the centre/winger and just died with the ball.
Connor on the other hand can pick a pass, and 9 times out of 10 picks the right option.
Shaul is 29 now. I don't think we can expect more than what he already offers. | | |
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Quote mwindass="mwindass"His decision making with ball in hand isn't good enough to be a top SL full back. I lost count the amount of times he took space away from the centre/winger and just died with the ball.
Connor on the other hand can pick a pass, and 9 times out of 10 picks the right option.
Shaul is 29 now. I don't think we can expect more than what he already offers.'"
Shaul has consistently offered more in attack for what he does extremely well than any other FB in SL, what other FB in the last 8 years has been able to open defences with his electric off the mark pace and elusiveness in open play on a regular basis?
Would you not say that his inability to develop in the way you're stating is down to the coaches that have been around him for the 7 years (discounting this year obvs) since he broke into the first team? Radford was the assistant coach with Last doing his thing, Shaul had just 5 appearances IIRC when he played for us at wembley, Gentle was already on the way out according to some on here by the September and radford was running the show in all but name.
So Radford got hold of him at 21 and just look at how many players that have come through our system in skill positions that have flourished/progressed under his and last's tenure, that will be absolutely no-one. Shaul as well as Logan, Crooks, Abdull, Hadley even Lineham (though coming from West Yorks), all fallen by the wayside or not improved despite their crackerjack starts, not just because of the individuals themselves but because of bang average coaching.
Yes, Shaul is 29, and it's far harder to change things, but writing him off and saying he can't improve is not just premature, it's oh so predictable from some who are all ready to dump on players without even giving them a chance!
As for Connor, yes, he can pick the right pass most of the time (I'd say more 8/10 but whatever), yes he offers something in attack that Shaul will never have, Connor is never scoring this try in a million years https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-league/40763731 , that he can read things differenty to Shaul in those situations that we see as his strengths, I won't argue from that standpoint.
However, Shaul is by far the better defender, he backs up more, he can scoot away from dummy half or open field play that Connor could only dream about. Connor is lazy at FB when the ball is coming from a kick, has he ever made a single break from FB from a kick?
Both players have their strengths and weaknesses, I would like to see Shaul get a chance to go back to FB after having some time under BH, will that happen, probaby not, but discounting that he can improve in certain areas under a former international FB, and at the same time ignore that Connor has his flaws in attack and defence at FB, just as Shaul has but in different ways, is in my opinion shortsighted.
Let's support him after such a horrendous time with his injury, I hope he can get a place in the side, whether that be at FB, interchange hooker or utility choice on the bench. If he can't, or isn't able to get back to full fitness then we have no room for sentiment, until that time comes we be positive and give him as much as fans can do the support players deserve. |
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Quote mwindass="mwindass"His decision making with ball in hand isn't good enough to be a top SL full back. I lost count the amount of times he took space away from the centre/winger and just died with the ball.
Connor on the other hand can pick a pass, and 9 times out of 10 picks the right option.
Shaul is 29 now. I don't think we can expect more than what he already offers.'"
Shaul has consistently offered more in attack for what he does extremely well than any other FB in SL, what other FB in the last 8 years has been able to open defences with his electric off the mark pace and elusiveness in open play on a regular basis?
Would you not say that his inability to develop in the way you're stating is down to the coaches that have been around him for the 7 years (discounting this year obvs) since he broke into the first team? Radford was the assistant coach with Last doing his thing, Shaul had just 5 appearances IIRC when he played for us at wembley, Gentle was already on the way out according to some on here by the September and radford was running the show in all but name.
So Radford got hold of him at 21 and just look at how many players that have come through our system in skill positions that have flourished/progressed under his and last's tenure, that will be absolutely no-one. Shaul as well as Logan, Crooks, Abdull, Hadley even Lineham (though coming from West Yorks), all fallen by the wayside or not improved despite their crackerjack starts, not just because of the individuals themselves but because of bang average coaching.
Yes, Shaul is 29, and it's far harder to change things, but writing him off and saying he can't improve is not just premature, it's oh so predictable from some who are all ready to dump on players without even giving them a chance!
As for Connor, yes, he can pick the right pass most of the time (I'd say more 8/10 but whatever), yes he offers something in attack that Shaul will never have, Connor is never scoring this try in a million years https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-league/40763731 , that he can read things differenty to Shaul in those situations that we see as his strengths, I won't argue from that standpoint.
However, Shaul is by far the better defender, he backs up more, he can scoot away from dummy half or open field play that Connor could only dream about. Connor is lazy at FB when the ball is coming from a kick, has he ever made a single break from FB from a kick?
Both players have their strengths and weaknesses, I would like to see Shaul get a chance to go back to FB after having some time under BH, will that happen, probaby not, but discounting that he can improve in certain areas under a former international FB, and at the same time ignore that Connor has his flaws in attack and defence at FB, just as Shaul has but in different ways, is in my opinion shortsighted.
Let's support him after such a horrendous time with his injury, I hope he can get a place in the side, whether that be at FB, interchange hooker or utility choice on the bench. If he can't, or isn't able to get back to full fitness then we have no room for sentiment, until that time comes we be positive and give him as much as fans can do the support players deserve. | |
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Quote BumpyMcbump="BumpyMcbump"Shaul has consistently offered more in attack for what he does extremely well than any other FB in SL, what other FB in the last 8 years has been able to open defences with his electric off the mark pace and elusiveness in open play on a regular basis?
Would you not say that his inability to develop in the way you're stating is down to the coaches that have been around him for the 7 years (discounting this year obvs) since he broke into the first team? Radford was the assistant coach with Last doing his thing, Shaul had just 5 appearances IIRC when he played for us at wembley, Gentle was already on the way out according to some on here by the September and radford was running the show in all but name.
So Radford got hold of him at 21 and just look at how many players that have come through our system in skill positions that have flourished/progressed under his and last's tenure, that will be absolutely no-one. Shaul as well as Logan, Crooks, Abdull, Hadley even Lineham (though coming from West Yorks), all fallen by the wayside or not improved despite their crackerjack starts, not just because of the individuals themselves but because of bang average coaching.
Yes, Shaul is 29, and it's far harder to change things, but writing him off and saying he can't improve is not just premature, it's oh so predictable from some who are all ready to dump on players without even giving them a chance!
As for Connor, yes, he can pick the right pass most of the time (I'd say more 8/10 but whatever), yes he offers something in attack that Shaul will never have, Connor is never scoring this try in a million years https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-league/40763731 , that he can read things differenty to Shaul in those situations that we see as his strengths, I won't argue from that standpoint.
However, Shaul is by far the better defender, he backs up more, he can scoot away from dummy half or open field play that Connor could only dream about. Connor is lazy at FB when the ball is coming from a kick, has he ever made a single break from FB from a kick?
Both players have their strengths and weaknesses, I would like to see Shaul get a chance to go back to FB after having some time under BH, will that happen, probaby not, but discounting that he can improve in certain areas under a former international FB, and at the same time ignore that Connor has his flaws in attack and defence at FB, just as Shaul has but in different ways, is in my opinion shortsighted.
Let's support him after such a horrendous time with his injury, I hope he can get a place in the side, whether that be at FB, interchange hooker or utility choice on the bench. If he can't, or isn't able to get back to full fitness then we have no room for sentiment, until that time comes we be positive and give him as much as fans can do the support players deserve.'"
Good argument.
What was the try you tried to link to? It wouldn’t work for me. |
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Quote BumpyMcbump="BumpyMcbump"Shaul has consistently offered more in attack for what he does extremely well than any other FB in SL, what other FB in the last 8 years has been able to open defences with his electric off the mark pace and elusiveness in open play on a regular basis?
Would you not say that his inability to develop in the way you're stating is down to the coaches that have been around him for the 7 years (discounting this year obvs) since he broke into the first team? Radford was the assistant coach with Last doing his thing, Shaul had just 5 appearances IIRC when he played for us at wembley, Gentle was already on the way out according to some on here by the September and radford was running the show in all but name.
So Radford got hold of him at 21 and just look at how many players that have come through our system in skill positions that have flourished/progressed under his and last's tenure, that will be absolutely no-one. Shaul as well as Logan, Crooks, Abdull, Hadley even Lineham (though coming from West Yorks), all fallen by the wayside or not improved despite their crackerjack starts, not just because of the individuals themselves but because of bang average coaching.
Yes, Shaul is 29, and it's far harder to change things, but writing him off and saying he can't improve is not just premature, it's oh so predictable from some who are all ready to dump on players without even giving them a chance!
As for Connor, yes, he can pick the right pass most of the time (I'd say more 8/10 but whatever), yes he offers something in attack that Shaul will never have, Connor is never scoring this try in a million years https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-league/40763731 , that he can read things differenty to Shaul in those situations that we see as his strengths, I won't argue from that standpoint.
However, Shaul is by far the better defender, he backs up more, he can scoot away from dummy half or open field play that Connor could only dream about. Connor is lazy at FB when the ball is coming from a kick, has he ever made a single break from FB from a kick?
Both players have their strengths and weaknesses, I would like to see Shaul get a chance to go back to FB after having some time under BH, will that happen, probaby not, but discounting that he can improve in certain areas under a former international FB, and at the same time ignore that Connor has his flaws in attack and defence at FB, just as Shaul has but in different ways, is in my opinion shortsighted.
Let's support him after such a horrendous time with his injury, I hope he can get a place in the side, whether that be at FB, interchange hooker or utility choice on the bench. If he can't, or isn't able to get back to full fitness then we have no room for sentiment, until that time comes we be positive and give him as much as fans can do the support players deserve.'"
Good argument.
What was the try you tried to link to? It wouldn’t work for me. | |
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Quote BumpyMcbump="BumpyMcbump"Shaul has consistently offered more in attack for what he does extremely well than any other FB in SL, what other FB in the last 8 years has been able to open defences with his electric off the mark pace and elusiveness in open play on a regular basis?
Would you not say that his inability to develop in the way you're stating is down to the coaches that have been around him for the 7 years (discounting this year obvs) since he broke into the first team? Radford was the assistant coach with Last doing his thing, Shaul had just 5 appearances IIRC when he played for us at wembley, Gentle was already on the way out according to some on here by the September and radford was running the show in all but name.
So Radford got hold of him at 21 and just look at how many players that have come through our system in skill positions that have flourished/progressed under his and last's tenure, that will be absolutely no-one. Shaul as well as Logan, Crooks, Abdull, Hadley even Lineham (though coming from West Yorks), all fallen by the wayside or not improved despite their crackerjack starts, not just because of the individuals themselves but because of bang average coaching.
Yes, Shaul is 29, and it's far harder to change things, but writing him off and saying he can't improve is not just premature, it's oh so predictable from some who are all ready to dump on players without even giving them a chance!
As for Connor, yes, he can pick the right pass most of the time (I'd say more 8/10 but whatever), yes he offers something in attack that Shaul will never have, Connor is never scoring this try in a million years https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-league/40763731 , that he can read things differenty to Shaul in those situations that we see as his strengths, I won't argue from that standpoint.
However, Shaul is by far the better defender, he backs up more, he can scoot away from dummy half or open field play that Connor could only dream about. Connor is lazy at FB when the ball is coming from a kick, has he ever made a single break from FB from a kick?
Both players have their strengths and weaknesses, I would like to see Shaul get a chance to go back to FB after having some time under BH, will that happen, probaby not, but discounting that he can improve in certain areas under a former international FB, and at the same time ignore that Connor has his flaws in attack and defence at FB, just as Shaul has but in different ways, is in my opinion shortsighted.
Let's support him after such a horrendous time with his injury, I hope he can get a place in the side, whether that be at FB, interchange hooker or utility choice on the bench. If he can't, or isn't able to get back to full fitness then we have no room for sentiment, until that time comes we be positive and give him as much as fans can do the support players deserve.'"
My initial point is that his decision making isn't good enough to be a top bracket SL full back. This issue would only be amplified at hooker.
Of course I want him to come back and play his part. But I don't see his future as a hooker, he should be outside back cover.
To say Radford didn't improve anyone is just wrong. |
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Quote BumpyMcbump="BumpyMcbump"Shaul has consistently offered more in attack for what he does extremely well than any other FB in SL, what other FB in the last 8 years has been able to open defences with his electric off the mark pace and elusiveness in open play on a regular basis?
Would you not say that his inability to develop in the way you're stating is down to the coaches that have been around him for the 7 years (discounting this year obvs) since he broke into the first team? Radford was the assistant coach with Last doing his thing, Shaul had just 5 appearances IIRC when he played for us at wembley, Gentle was already on the way out according to some on here by the September and radford was running the show in all but name.
So Radford got hold of him at 21 and just look at how many players that have come through our system in skill positions that have flourished/progressed under his and last's tenure, that will be absolutely no-one. Shaul as well as Logan, Crooks, Abdull, Hadley even Lineham (though coming from West Yorks), all fallen by the wayside or not improved despite their crackerjack starts, not just because of the individuals themselves but because of bang average coaching.
Yes, Shaul is 29, and it's far harder to change things, but writing him off and saying he can't improve is not just premature, it's oh so predictable from some who are all ready to dump on players without even giving them a chance!
As for Connor, yes, he can pick the right pass most of the time (I'd say more 8/10 but whatever), yes he offers something in attack that Shaul will never have, Connor is never scoring this try in a million years https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-league/40763731 , that he can read things differenty to Shaul in those situations that we see as his strengths, I won't argue from that standpoint.
However, Shaul is by far the better defender, he backs up more, he can scoot away from dummy half or open field play that Connor could only dream about. Connor is lazy at FB when the ball is coming from a kick, has he ever made a single break from FB from a kick?
Both players have their strengths and weaknesses, I would like to see Shaul get a chance to go back to FB after having some time under BH, will that happen, probaby not, but discounting that he can improve in certain areas under a former international FB, and at the same time ignore that Connor has his flaws in attack and defence at FB, just as Shaul has but in different ways, is in my opinion shortsighted.
Let's support him after such a horrendous time with his injury, I hope he can get a place in the side, whether that be at FB, interchange hooker or utility choice on the bench. If he can't, or isn't able to get back to full fitness then we have no room for sentiment, until that time comes we be positive and give him as much as fans can do the support players deserve.'"
My initial point is that his decision making isn't good enough to be a top bracket SL full back. This issue would only be amplified at hooker.
Of course I want him to come back and play his part. But I don't see his future as a hooker, he should be outside back cover.
To say Radford didn't improve anyone is just wrong. | |
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| Quote Mike1970="Mike1970"Good argument.
What was the try you tried to link to? It wouldn’t work for me.'"
It was the Leeds CC semifinal where we smashed them and Shaul scored from 70 yards out, just one example of many where Shaul has a huge advantage in attack that Connor or simply doesn't have, it's swings and roundabouts. For all that Connor adds he also has his pitfalls, IMO I think on balance that Shaul is the better fullback, he offers equally in attack, just in a different way, but and again it's an opinion, I think he has the superior defence.
I just don't like that some are saying he can't do this or that because of his age or whatever, he's had a prop forward coaching him for 7 years whose idea of a winning formula was more smash bang wallop kick to the corner and rely on indivdual brilliance, if we have a coach who played in a skill position and can coach that (Lineham said it was a revelation been coached by BH after he'd left Hull) then you'd like to think that he (shaul) can take some of that going forward, even if it isn't at FB
This is just chatting about possibilities for Shaul and the club, if Shaul gets fit and we use him as interchange then that has a bearing on Johnstone, if Shaul is just a squad player going forward with him not getting regular first team games then does Shaul consider a move somewhere else? | | | |
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| Quote mwindass="mwindass"My initial point is that his decision making isn't good enough to be a top bracket SL full back. This issue would only be amplified at hooker.
Of course I want him to come back and play his part. But I don't see his future as a hooker, he should be outside back cover.
To say Radford didn't improve anyone is just wrong.'"
I didn't say he didn't improve anyone, I said he didn't improve any of the skill positions and we lost youngsters coming through because of his way of coaching and attitude to signing players from outside the club more often than not as well as not using players correctly/to their strengths or in sides that were overall just poorly coached. Players who want to learn and have endeavour to succeed wil improve as they get older within a team environment, that doesn't mean that is all from the coach.
As for your last point, I understand that view, I personally would rather have Shaul as an interchange dummy half for now IF he can get fit and prove himself, the problem as I see it is that we have a great young FB in Wynn but Connor (unless injured) has that tied down, do we culture Wynn as the future at FB or, as we've seen in the recent past, he leaves to get a chance of first team experience elsewhere, it's just replicating what happened with Logan in many ways. | | | |
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