I agree. Scooting had become far too easy and effective due to the complete lack of tolerance for any work in the tackle and that meant you didn't need any 'skill' to succeed. Find the ground quickly and you would either get a quick play and a scoot against a broken, unset line or a penalty.



For a change, I agree with Morgan. The problem isn't that more time is being allowed - that was a necessity. The problem is that everything is being let go currently. Rather than having a situation in which good technique is rewarded and poor technique punished on both sides of the ball, the defence is currently being allowed total control no matter how good their work is. And, along with directives from the top, referees not knowing enough about how the game is played and coached will contribute to these poor decisions being made.

Technique also needs to be massively improved, almost across the board (Wigan being the only real exception at the minute), when it comes to working to get up. It's obvious that a lot of work has been done on defensive grappling technique in the last couple of years, and it's improving, but the other side of it doesn't seem to have progressed much at all.

We seem to have gone from one extreme to another. I can't decide which ruins the game more, super fast PTBs or the 'wrestleathon' we saw on Friday. If we speed it up too much games are literally decided on the speed of a teams PTB, with no creativity required. We saw how this had an impact at international level when we couldn't rely on the quick PTB. There has to be a happy medium were the ruck is controlled to a degree but there is still the opportunity of a quick PTB, if it's earnt.

As a sport though we've been trying to promote faster play the balls for 7 or 8 years now with constant penalties where they dont happen. I dont understand how they can make such a wholesale change to their interpretation of the law pretty much overnight and not communicate it to the teams or the fans. It might promote more skill in breaking down defensive lines but it's also incredibly boring to watch after watching the speed of the game for the last few years.

Definately not the right move imo. We are never going to catch the aussies skill wise anyway, why bother.

Yeah, defeatism is [idefinitely[/i the way forward.

My point was more that we keep changing and tweaking the way that the game is played in the UK with the ultimate aim of competing with the aussies on the international stage. All it ever seems to do is make a mockery of our league and there are far more important things we need to focus on like getting the standard of our refereeing up to speed. Skills wise we will always be a decent level off the aussies and to be fair the international game is pretty much dead in the water. We should get our own house in order first before all this messing about.

I am all for promoting the skills of the players but the wrestling I have had to watch over the last couple of games is a real negative and spoiling the game IMO. Whilst I dont want to go back to the scoot every tackle their must be a better way to encourage skilfull play. An 8 metre defensive line for example?

Improving the standard of refereeing would improve how the ruck is policed and that would improve the spectacle. Unfortunately, despite having the right idea and mindset, the RFL just haven't implemented the necessary changes in the way that they should have. They've tried to do too much at once and have done this half-heartedly.

I think that would definately be worth looking at. The problem we have, politically, is how free are we to act independently? If we did it and the NRL did not, that would make international rules very difficult to agree.

I know following the Aussies is galling, but their competition is regarded a success. Maybe we should adopt the 2nd ref?????????

Totally agree with this.

A fast PTB doesn't always mean a skoot though, if the tacklers have found themselves in a poor position then a skoot is fair enough as you have earned it but its possible to have a quick PTB AND the markers set so that if they work hard they can stop the skoot option anyway. The fast PTB then allows the ball to be moved wide quicker and would encourage more skill being used in the 3/4s.

From my point of view at least, a fast PTB is relative to the markers and line being set, not an absolute in terms in time.

The two are linked though and my point was that the line might not be set but the markers could be set and if they work hard can eliminate the skoot option so that the ball still has to go through hands to create the space further wide. We then get the best of both worlds, the game is faster but you still need to have a degree of skill to take advantage. If you win the collision and the defenders end up in a bad tackle position you should be able to take advantage of that with a skoot. If you win the collision but the defenders end up in a decent tackle position then playing the ball quicker and getting the ball wide before the line is set is your reward. At the moment its like a training ground exercise in breaking down a set defensive line everytime and you get no reward for good work in the tackle/collision.

I think you generally only really get that after a break has been made, which is when you do often see a quick play result in the ball being moved wide. It's very rare that you'll see a tackle made, the markers setting, yet the defence not being set as it's only 10m to work in 3-4 seconds. But I take your point and it will happen occasionally.



Fully agree, more knowledge of how the game is played is needed by officials, both on field and in the offices. It's a pity more ex-players/coaches don't move into this area.

Agreed and preferably into Stuart Cumming's role ASAP.

Thats another thing the NRL is very good at for instance Gorden Tallis was a chair on the disciplinary commitee over there and Brad Fittle is a advisor to refs in the way they speak to players and he coaches them on the 'wrestling' techinques sides employ and how to spot them.

Imo id rather see faster play the balls its more exciting, looking at players wrestling on the floor is just plain [size=150Boring.[/size

For once in a good while we actually look good offensively but all this wrestling at the ruck area is slowing any momentum we have, either good from the opposing team or poor refereeing imo the later.
If i'm honest if the wrestling technique is the way the comp is going to go i would find myself losing interest as i find it bloody boring and it would be border line unionesc

No arguments from me there FC Casual. I think more supporters will be put off if things continue the way they are.

The problem with the fast play the ball is that it isn't. The players are NOT playing the ball with the foot. It gives too much of an advantage to the attacking team and promotes the scooter hooker, who is in effect a failed halfback with little ball handling skills.
As for the three men in a tackle I am old enough to remember the likes of Brian McTigue, Johnny Whitley, Bill Drake etc. They would have loved it. Three men in the tackle, ball out and the likes of Sam Tomkins or Richard Horne would have had a field day.
The slower play the ball should in time allow us to produce skilful forwards and half back again instead of the one dimensional run from dummy half..

As I said if you want a quicker play the ball then you have to address how the ball is played, but you certainly can't have it both ways.

Agree about the Play the ball all we need is for the refs to stick to the rules not what their view of them is!

I'm also a fan who can remember the Drakes ,Whitley's Harry Markham etc
The game at the moment is very negative and run it seems by the referees while us the poor supporters are supposed to help fund it.
We are paying for less action due to this waisting time tactic and getting like union will drive fans away already feed up with it .
Funny last year every one was on about Huddersfield doing it all wanted to stamp it out then, now seems some one has given it the ok and we all except it .
So who has got that much power to over rule what the fans want????

Are players/coaches not partly to blame for the increase in wrestling? How many forwards take the ball up with a quick PTB being the first thing on their mind? This season, how often have you seen forwards run full tilt at the opposition, with the aim of braking the line?

IMO players are putting too much emphasis on the wrestle when they are in possession. Players see more advantage in hitting the deck and getting up asap, then actually trying to break the line. Problem is, by the time they have ‘Surrendered’ (god I hate that call) there are usually 3 or 4 players on top of them, getting to their feet one by one. The only quick PTBs I’ve seen this season have been earned by a forward piercing the line, maybe if players had that as their primary aim it would happen more often?

Just watching the Wigan vs Leeds game and if Alibert had been reffing it Wigan would be miles in front by now. The amount of wrestle they are utilising in the tackle and yet they scream for a penalty every time a Wigan player is tackled is embaressing. If only we'd have had a stronger ref than the joke that is Alibert when we played them.

thought ganson seemed to allow a lot less laying on last night, hopefully cummings has seen sense

that arguements complete cack, he likes slow plays of the ball because his team's rubbish. there's not been any more skill the last couple of seasons, but i'd bet there's been a higher percentage of tries scored from hoofing the ball in the air

Said that too. Hopefully they'll have realised quickly that allowing the slow ptb isnt the way to go. Saying that, would be useful if they told the players. Some of them last night looked confused when they got penalised as theyve got away with it for weeks.