I don't think Westerman is consistent at all which is one of his biggest problems. He had an absolute mare against KR last week for example. Only Horne and Whiting emerged with any credit from that game. Regarding the error stat I don't actually place too much stock on any stat I prefer instead to watch the game myself and make up my own mind. That said it didn't come as any surprise to me at all that Westy was top of the errors when I checked it out because it's how I'd seen the season so far. Same with Yeamo who puts a stack of ball down particularly near the opposition line.

No one will be more pleased than me if Westy gets himself into the international reckoning as Tickle has done. He will have to be better and without a shadow of a doubt more consistent if he is to do it though.

I'd rather have Westy than Tickle. England recognition means little to me. Lynch never got any real international recognition but he's been a great prop.

Oh aye. And I've said before that stats are open to interpretation anyway as it's not clear how some of them are assembled. But when there is a clear difference across the board then it's generally a reliable indicator. IMO it also backs up what I've seen in the games so far, the Derby excepted.

Pretty much agree with comments, IMO Westy has been a big dissapointment since signing, has the odd outstanding game but generally been mediocre, has the enthusiasm, vocal with other players etc but for me its not really happened for him in a B&W shirt

Again I disagree, and largely with your own reasoning. The very reason Westerman has been probably our best forward is because he's been our most consistent. He was poor against Rovers (whilst not playing in the forwards), and mediocre against Widnes (which still had him as one of our best). Other than that he's been impressive every single game. If you're valuing consistency, then this season I really don't see how any forward can come out better than Westerman, he's had the least amount of dips in performance level of all of them.

I know I'm coming back to it, but only because you mentioned Whiting as being better, and his consistency has been all over the place in comparison (massively out of character for him). He was poor against Leeds, ordinary against Bradford, less than great against Wire, poor against Widnes. I also partly disagree about the derby. He was definitely better than Westerman, but as I said at the time I still don't think he played well. He got involved a lot and tried hard, but the quality of his work still lacked badly, particularly his kicking. I don't blame him for one minute though.

Totally agree. The derby is the only game this year where I think Westerman has been outright bad. Every other he's been at least one of our best forwards, if not one of our best players overall.

that's a new one. It's an opinion which I'm happy to stick with and as I've said many times I would be delighted if he played well enough to be selected internationally. You had Lynch in your 'list of players to drop' earlier in the season for example - we saw how well that went when he missed KR due to illness. Nonetheless it was your opinion and I don't believe you are 'biased' against him subconsciously or otherwise.

When fans are leaving the KC and the talk at the exits is what a great forward Westerman is and how he has led the pack and influenced the game that will be the time when I know he is playing well and he is as good as some on here make out. Look how Ben Westwood is viewed in the game or Sean O'Loughlin. Those are top players in Westy's position. I really hope he gets to those levels while in a black and white shirt but there's no sign of it since he joined. That's nothing to do with stats or opinion that's just fact. Same goes for any other second rower by the way.

Actually my post originally compared him to Lynch and Whiting when replying to a claim he's been our best forward. So you're completely wrong to say it was 'specifically Whiting' as it wasn't. Someone else picked up on the Whiting bit and ignored the Lynch bit. As for international selection I would much rather have a team full of internationals than not and the teams that provide the vast bulk of England players are also the teams who are successful and win things like Super League and the Challenge Cup. So I'll put a bit more weight on that than you and I'll suggest that overall being an international is a good thing. I mentioned international selection because we currently have a second rower in that set up and again the original claim was that Westy had been our best forward. I perfectly reasonably implied that were he at that level he might expect to be in the set up too which he isn't even being talked about as far as I know



The implication was that I've not really heard anyone raving about Westy despite the claim he's been consistently our best forward. Don't think he's landed a MOM for a long time and by all accounts he hasn't been voted player of the month by his peers either. These were things I was throwing in as possible evidence that his performances haven't been as good as some have made out. I think you probably knew what I meant though.

Fair enough. The bit of the conversation I was involved in revolved around Whiting - must have speed read the rest.


I'm a bit more cynical about the reasoning behind England selections than you are. But then I'm an old cynic. I'm certainly not suggesting that Westerman has been unfairly passed over or anything of the sort.


I did know what you meant. And my comment was meant to indicate that I don't put too much weight on who gets raved about as you regularly see and hear some very odd opinions of players. Everyone tends to see a different game.

I've also not made claims about Westerman being our best forward. Or even expressed an opinion on his capability in general. I've commented on him in comparison to Whiting because I happened to have an opinion on that particular comparison and had seen some stats that were relevant. I rate him more highly than you do (as you know) but not as highly as some. Firmly on the fence, me.

He certainly was bigged up after his breakthrough season in 2007. Fair to say he's not fully delivered on the potential discussed here in the way Burgess has, but perhaps the expectations were inflated. The biggest transfer fee paid by the club in a decade, I'd guess, I think that compounded an expectation he'd be more of a direct/playmaking force than he's been, but for me he's a handy backrower, better played wide rather than through the middle. www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/s ... e_Burgess/

He certainly was bigged up after his breakthrough season in 2007. Fair to say he's not fully delivered on the potential discussed here in the way Burgess has, but perhaps the expectations were inflated. The biggest transfer fee paid by the club in a decade, I'd guess, I think that compounded an expectation he'd be more of a direct/playmaking force than he's been, but for me he's a handy backrower, better played wide rather than through the middle. www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/s ... e_Burgess/

I didn't pick up on Lynch because I didn't think it was as outlandish a claim as Whiting. Over the last month there's possibly a case for Lynch (as there possibly is for Watts and maybe even Galea too the last few weeks, although I'd still tip Westerman), but not over the season IMO.

With your international selection reasoning, I have a question

Only 2 players have been voted POTM by the Hull squad, both backs. Not sure what bearing that has on a discussion about Westerman's standing in our forwards and how his peers view him, TBH.