It is very difficult to understand people's negativity towards him.

Bloke behind me at the derby was mouthing off about him not coming up with enough to justify what we paid for him, and how he doesn't even care because he lives in Cas and he'll be 'back there drinking with his cas mates tonight anyways' and how that means the derby doesn't matter to him anyways.

The worst part, other than the people around us agreeing with him, was that he was shouting all this as Westerman was running good lines with the ball in hand trying to create down our right side and getting shut down by Paterson before he could get the ball away. He was obviously trying to play like a stand off, stepping and dummying through the line and looking for the other players, and it wasn't anything to do with lack effort on his part that meant we weren't coming up with the goods.

Maybe some people just think it was Westerman, and not Cas, that negotiated his transfer fee?

I think westerman's game has suffered from him not being in a settled position and also our lack of playmakers. Once galea and tickle go I hope he gets a settled run in the 2nd row and some decent ball from a settled half back pairing. That's when we'll see how good he can be. I think some fans probably don't see what he does do because we see the odd flash of brilliance and they expect it all of the time. He'll mature into a much better 2nd rower than tickle IMO and he's only about 23 so still has many years in front of him.

By his own high standards, I think whiting has been below average so far this season but he has been playing all over the place and is another one who will look better if we can have a period of less injuries

There's always someone mouthing off at games. Someone that sits behind me can be full of praise one minute for a player and then as soon as they make a mistake they start saying they're the worst player ever to wear the black and white shirt.

Wow - and it's claimed Westerman has no recognition



Whiting doesn't play the full 80 which is why his stats on things like metres and tackles are likely to be lower - just a thought. It may also be a contributor the other way against Westerman - perhaps he could do to be spelled a bit more then his large error and penalty count may fall.

A key indicator for Westerman this season will be whether or not he gets in the frame for England at the end of the year. I hope he does as it will mean that he's had a good season for us. At the moment I doubt he's close but it could change.

See above re stats which will reflect game time.

I don't like the errors stat, what does it mean, in what context? Maybe Westerman makes more errors as he tries more offloads and attempts to be creative? Not saying that's the case but that's the issue we don't know what these errors are or where they occurred. If the errors are on opponents line they don't hurt us. If it's in our half they do.

I like Whiting but he's not been his usual consistent self for me this season.

I don't think Westerman is consistent at all which is one of his biggest problems. He had an absolute mare against KR last week for example. Only Horne and Whiting emerged with any credit from that game. Regarding the error stat I don't actually place too much stock on any stat I prefer instead to watch the game myself and make up my own mind. That said it didn't come as any surprise to me at all that Westy was top of the errors when I checked it out because it's how I'd seen the season so far. Same with Yeamo who puts a stack of ball down particularly near the opposition line.

No one will be more pleased than me if Westy gets himself into the international reckoning as Tickle has done. He will have to be better and without a shadow of a doubt more consistent if he is to do it though.

I'd rather have Westy than Tickle. England recognition means little to me. Lynch never got any real international recognition but he's been a great prop.

Oh aye. And I've said before that stats are open to interpretation anyway as it's not clear how some of them are assembled. But when there is a clear difference across the board then it's generally a reliable indicator. IMO it also backs up what I've seen in the games so far, the Derby excepted.

Quite possible. If Westerman is averaging 80 minutes (although it is definitely lower than this, he has been subbed a few times this year) and Whiting somewhere between 50-60 those particular stats even out a bit more. But it's the fact that Westerman is averaging more metres per carry and has a higher tackle completion rate that sticks out to me. This suggests that despite doing more work than Whiting (not a criticism of Whiting, just the way things currently are) and the fatigue factor that brings, he's still doing it to a higher standard.

I'm not meaning to sound like I'm complaining about Whiting, I think he's one of the most valuable members of our squad. I just strongly disagree with the claim that he has been better than Westerman this year, and that this is saying things how you see them. If that really is how you see things I think you may have some bias you don't realise affecting you.

Pretty much agree with comments, IMO Westy has been a big dissapointment since signing, has the odd outstanding game but generally been mediocre, has the enthusiasm, vocal with other players etc but for me its not really happened for him in a B&W shirt