He's far better in and around the ruck as well, Westerman seems to switch off letting their acting half make quick yards.

Maybe something that will come with maturity as he gets older, Tickle himself is proof of that.

Defiantly.

I have provided evidence of how Westerman performs at loose man in relation to defensive work...we have no evidence for Tickle, we just know he misses more tackles.
There is more to pivotal play than scoring tries and try assists, passing a ball earlier in the piece resulting in a try, kicks in open play..surely even with your limited knowledge you realise this?
Now your theory of Tickle being better defesensvily than Westy has been blown out of the water are you now suggesting Tickle may offer more than Westy in offense ?

Some people need to get out more.

We've managed without the latter for some time, so I think we'll be OK

Ok i have a solution to end the argument and make everyone happy.
There are no rules stating that he who attacks the middle must defend the middle, so the obvious answer would be to let the more creative player (Westerman) attack the middle having the option to attack the left or right side of the pitch, leaving Tickle to stay out on the right and attack the right edge.
Then when we are defending, Westerman moves out to the right to defend the right edge, leaving Tickle to defend the middle of the pitch.
( just like the halfbacks attack the middle but defend out on the edge )

Martha and co should be happy because we have a pivotal player attacking from loose forward.
East Hull fc should be happy because tickle is defending the and Westerman is wide right.
Hell even Standee should be happy because we are not following the norm and are doing it different to the rest

Nows sits back and waits for my theory to be shot down

Steady now.

I'm sure Ellis will get a shot at some stage, it's a big step up for him but he seems to have plenty of confidence so i'm optimistic he'll do well.

I expect Horne/Symour to start at 6/7 and if form/injuries occur then the other partnerships will be Horne/Ellis and Seymour/Ellis. I wonder in the CC if we might even try Nicklas/Ellis if we get a favourable draw?

On the Westerman issue, I have always preferred a ball handling 13 but I think East Hull Fan might be right and Tickle will actually play there. Most teams in the NRL/SL don't employ a ball playing 13 these days so there is nothing to suggest Gentle will buck that trend.

Although playing Joe in the back roiw limits him to one side of the field in theory, in practice he will pop up around the middle from time to time. If you look at Joe's best performances last year they came despite him being named as a back rower.

Also the reliance on a ball playing 13 only comes when there is something lacking in the halves and we have suffered by not hvaing either in recent seasons. If Horne/Seymour play well together and McKinnon and Heremaia help out too then Tickle at 13 will be fine. We don't want to have too many pivots and not enough runners otherwise we will be no better off.

As for defensive stats, pulling up numbers of tackles does not give you an indication of how the tackle was completed and if the collision was won. Houghton makes lots of tackles but often gets dominated which results in the opposition gaining a quick ptb. This won't show up in stats.

Westerman's defence improved as the year went on but his one and one defence is still a weakness.

I'm sure Gentle will look at all the options but playing Tickle at 13 does not mean Westerman can't be a creative player, it just means he may play on one side of the pitch.

As for Whiting he may do well in the backrow but what we don't know is if he has the engine/stamina to play in that position and if his body can take the level of work each week. We won't know until we try it but he will need to add considerable bulk to do well in the pack imo.

Good post paul.I agree about the halves,and to a lesser extent about Westerman.As for Whiting,i have always thought he should be either in the 2nd row,or as a loose man.I think if Gentle sees him in either of those roles,then a bit more bulk is necessary,though he showed last season that he is more than capable of handlng himself.