thats so funny , well thought out critique lol

Exactly nail on head. Good Post.

Horne should've played fullback
Heremai/Whiting/Westermann halfs..

Usually, yes. Keeping in the same players clearly isn't working though, and in some cases they aren't really getting any better. Maybe it's about time they just needed a kick up the backside.



The improvement's not been enough though, has it? If we're going to lose matches in the mean time anyway, I'd sooner we a) show players that if they don't pull their weight somebody else will get their chance, and b) give a few of our youngsters some game time.



Only cuts it for so long though. Matchday is when it counts, even if players are training the house down and contributing brilliantly in performance reviews, if they're still not getting it right in games it's pointless.

Speaking of training the house down, we were told preseason that Bowden was our best trainer weren't we? So why did it take until round 6 and injuries to Green and Johnson before he was given a crack, despite Lynch and O'Meley both being patchy at best?



As opposed to the happy days of sunshine we're strolling in now?



Quite true. Still not quite working out though, is it? With us playing as we are I think it's very difficult to say whether he's right or wrong.



Bollards. I'm simply saying it's possibly about time we made a few (not lots of) changes to the old faces, as continually sticking with what we've got doesn't seem to be doing us any good, and the complacency of players knowing they'll keep their place may not be healthy for us.

It is a copout to suggest that we need a scrum half to improve. I totally agree that we need a scrum half to get to where we would all like to be, what I don't agree with is the suggestion that we won't get ANY better until we get one, or that once we do it will solve just about everything. At times it seems to be claimed that our ONLY problem is the lack of a scrum half, that's where I think it's a copout.

We could play the ball quicker than we do now if our forwards worked harder to find their knees and then fought to get up. Almost to a man our pack spend far too much time pinned on their backs and then labour to get up. This should be fixable without a scrum half, and neither would it be fixed by one.

Support play and dummy runners are a similar story. It really should be possible to address both of these in training, and unless we have a team of Forrest Gumps I don't see why a scrum half should be needed to go out there and tell them to run. Yes, the organisation and coordination it would bring should improve the quality of the work, but we should at least have some sort of foundations already to build on, not the non-existence we have now.

Our passing isn't quick enough or accurate enough. We should be able to improve this without a new half, and even with a new half we'd still need to fix this in others, they wouldn't be able to do it all themselves.

Our flat attacking line should be better than it is even without new personnel. Yes, this is one area where I would absolutely say that a top half would vastly improve the situation, but we should still be able to do something about this with the players we already have. Surely training drills could get it into players to drop deeper to run onto the ball? Does it really need somebody out there telling them to do it at every ptb before they will?

So I agree that there are a lot of problems for us that could be fixed just by getting the right half, but I also think there are several other problems that wouldn't/shouldn't need to be. Pinning it all on the lack of a halfback is just hiding from that.

I mentioned several posts ago that a half back would solve 80% of our problems (pareto). That is 80% not 100% so it isn't me who is "pinning it all on the lack of a halfback" - if you are addressing that at me then you're wrong to do so as I've never said it. Of course we have some improvement in us this season and I think we will see that as we go along. We improved last year over the previous one and will again this year if we can manage to get our main recruits on the field.

No one is "hiding" from anything (whatever that means) but the successful teams in the world have top halves who direct, lead and influence play. I'm confident that we would play a great deal better if we had one. Your points address 20% of our problems - a top half back would address 80%. It's a shame we haven't had one for donkey's years except for a Dykes cameo that got us to Wembley where unfortunately he didn't play and we lost.

The debate ends there for me - yes we clearly have further improvements in us this season. It's notable that when our main half Holdsworth actually plays we look a fair amount better than when he doesn't. Richard Horne is doing a valiant job as ever with an assist and a try the other day. But until we get that top half we will stay 4th-6th which is where I believe we'll finish this year.

Agree with all of that. A new scrum half would solve a few issues but to suggest that one player can suddenly make all of our other players perform better is wishful thinking. Unless of course you are signing one of the best in the world like Cronk or Thurston then that could happen.

There just isn't the quality of half available that will transform our team. We have an organiser, what we need now is someone who has genuine pace with a touch of creativity to partner DJ.

Our issues are much deeper than one player, we are lazy and lack mental toughness. That has to come from the coach, like MaGuire did with Wigan. A new halfback won't make too much difference if he doesn't have runners to give him options.

This is the biggest disappointment for me with Gentle, he hasn't transformed our style of play that much. We don't ptb any quicker, we don't have proper attacking structures in place, we still give away silly penalties late in sets and we still lack belief. The one thing he has done in improve us defensively and made us more agressive.

A new SH is a must but if we are expecting miracles then we'll be disappointed.

I still think 4-6th but if we don't start winning soon it will be 6-8th or worse.

Absolutely spot on!!

My previous post stated, Wigan have lost 2 superior HB'S, and yet their structure,and basic core skills, still in situ.
Nathan Brown did the same with Huddersfield.

No, I'm not accusing you of pinning all of our problems on the lack of a halfback. I don't agree with how much you are attributing to that, either though. I'm more in line with Paul M's post. There's a lot that we should be getting right in readiness for a new halfback, and expecting that a new scrum half alone will provide such a huge lift is unrealistic IMO.

So some agree that the problem is the two average (Agar/Gentle) coaches and not just lack of a S/H.
Couldn't agree more.

Typo

Edited for accuracy,

IMO it's to early to definitively state that Gentle is 'average'. In fact it's to early to decide about him one way or another. Most people were happy with how he handled the side last season, now after 8 games he's suddenly gash.

Best supporters in the world, us.

Not 'gash' MOD. Average.