also starting 13 westy vice wearing 12

I see him having a go at players, getting "hyped" giving penalties away, and dropping the ball, not the qualities I want in a captain

westerman gives penalties away just the same as any other player in SL i wouldnt deny him been future captain on that note, hes a natural leader and just wants to compete and win hence geeing up the lads, ellis as prob give as many pens away as westy but i wouldnt stop him been captain either, westerman trys to change games as he is aball playing 13 atleast he trys and works hard.

I think it's an old wives tale that he's a ball playing 13, not seen much of it, since he's been here, how long are people going to carry on saying it, don't get me wrong, I'd love him to be that player, but I think it's time to face the facts, that he isn't, hope he proves me wrong next season, he probably will! Then do one to a bigger club, don't start, Wigan, leeds are a bigger club at the minute

It's more about where and when in gives the penalties away for me, always seems to be when we've got teams under the cosh or on last tackle

it is frustrating when its last tackle but westerman gets through a lot of unnoticed work hes prob on the field to many minutes since he came the game as changed were as he was a ball playing 13 to been as a 3rd prop like gallen does so hes prob frustrated himself.

Whiting is one of the worst culprits of this.

Westerman had had a good season, in fact he has been a good buy, just because we paid for him, people get on his back.

His stats show,

2nd most tackles.

Most tackle busts for a forward

3rd most carries.

2nd offloads

I still don't think we use him right, better outwide, hopefully radford will get the best out of him.

I agree with some of that, but please lets not compare him to gallen, that man is a warrior, I wouldn't mind a 13 like him, now that's a captain for you, he's got my vote for 2014 ha oh yeh rumour as it he's signed on a 3 year deal, don't take that to serious mrs b haha

All them stats show, is he plays to many minutes, we defend alot, our forwards don't bust tackles, and he offloads the ball, to what effect those off loads lead to, not much as far as I can remember, and I totally agree about using him out wide, in fact it would be nice to any of our forwards run wide rather than come back inside, are we the only team in sl who doesn't try getting our big men out wide going at smaller opposition, really hope radfords got some good ideas, the decîsion of going for radford is growing on me, he's saying all the right things, just hope he can put it into practice

i wasnt comparing just saying the games gone from loose man been a ball player to been an extra prop like gallen as for a few seasons now SL is adapting to it, so for westerman who as been like an extra halfback most of his career it must be difficult.

While Westy does top our Error and Penalty counts, he's given away just 3 more penalties than Rich Whiting. Would you like him to 'do one' as well?

By the way, Westy is also second to Houghton for number of tackles, third for number of marker tackles, 4th for tackle busts, third for carries. So he does a hell of a lot of work.

Read my last few posts and you'll know what I think about the stats, prove nothing, and yes I like whiting for his versatility, but I would't loose any sleep, he very rarely starts a game if we are at full strength, and that's happened for seasons, so the past coaches have obviously not rated him as highly as some on here, I think the penalties he gives away are less noticeable then westermans, not as stupid or at times when where struggling so takes on for the team, I'd certainly put him in the side before westerman, if westerman was a young Aussie signed for a fee and with potentional, he'd of been hammered on here, it's only my opinion anyway, I've friends that disagree with me, but I think we'd be a better team without him, no doubt somebodies got the stats for how we have done when he ain't played

I've pointed this out before, but people don't seem to want to accept it or they find excuses for some reason.

And you can also factor in that Westerman tends to play more minutes, has played a game more, and has been in the pack almost every game, where Whiting has had some time in the backs again.

Some of our players' penalty records are really hindered by the fact that we don't keep the ball enough ourselves. If we could actually attack I reckon you'd see a 10-20% drop for some of them.