I agree wholeheartedly with the 3rd prop bit. Whiting seems to manage some creativity/offloading wherever he plays in the majority of games so I'm not sure whether it's actively discouraged. He came on for Ellis yesterday and offloaded far more than Ellis has been doing. Not saying he's better just pointing out that it can be/is done.

Has anyone considered that the reason why Whiting is consistently more creative than our other back row forwards is because he doesn't play long minutes? That using him off the bench is deliberate and leaves him the energy to be creative?

Maybe, but then the others don't seem to manage it as effectively even when they're fresh. That said, I find the props' lack of any discernible offloading ability more frustrating than the back row's creativity deficit.

I've mentioned that as a possibility. However I believe he is also of the 'old school' ball playing ability type player who basically knows how to play that type of football. For some reason it hasn't been 'coached out' of him (I don't really run with that theory). It's why I like him as a player - he gets his arms free and turns in the tackle as a result of winning the initial contact. He's no world beater and gives away some penalties but he has footballing skills. I'm not convinced some of our other back rowers are as good in that area.

Westerman was like that when he first came here. Now not so much. Even Tickle has gone backwards in this regard. I'm wondering if it's a deliberate tactic or a result of the long minutes both players do. Otherwise it's a bit of a mystery.

That's garbage. We consistent spend time in the opposition 20 and offer no threat. Nothing to do with a beaten pack but a lack of people knowing what to do to create opportunities and flair

Its a combination of both; i.e. lack of a settled halfback combination and a lightweight pack that gets steam rollered by the opposition forwards. We need some big, badass forwards to lay a platform for the halfbacks and backs.

Maybe they gave up looking to offload because no bugger ever backed them up?

No it isn't sweetheart. Take your head out your ass and you'd see that if our forwards laid a platform it would give our halves the time and space to create.

Were do people get that Westerman is or was a ball playing forward,he was played at Cas as a wide running 2nd row,how can it be coached out of him,if he never had it in the first place?

I'm a massive fan of Westerman, but not at 13. Think Gentle feels he needs Tickle on the pitch for goal kicking, so Westy gets shoved in the middle.

I think our attacking quality (or lack thereof) is down to Gentle, now the squad is 'his', getting the defence firing first. You can't deny our defence has had real stopping power this season, I'm confident our attack will improve exponentially over time.

Absolutely. A complete change of approach needs time and as Cal says our defence is now as good as any in the league. I'm sure attention will now turn to the attack and that we will all see an improvement in this department. Rome wasn't built in a day and after the Agar years some major correction was needed.

Our pack is the problem IMO, they get beaten too easy and have a way too slow PTB. They offer little in offloads and when they do its when they don't need to.

It takes a full backline to produce tries though and plenty of other teams score without there halfbacks creating tries.

I'm just hoping there is some sort of long term masterplan on the cards.