Don't think I said that anywhere, did I?

You can't educate people who don't want to be educated. Simple. And this country celebrates and rewards ignorance and mediocrity rather than education and achievement. That's cultural and media-driven rather than the direct result of Government policy. No matter how good a school is, if the kids coming in don't want to get an education and their parents can't be bothered there is very little you can do.

I'm no fan of this Government and I'm unimpressed with politicians generally, but they are not solely to blame for the ignorance that blights large sections of our society. And I'm also not sure what the alternative to having a liberal society is. A totalitarian one?

As i'm sure youre aware in business there's a general principle that employees who expect things to happen to them or for them are generally less engaged and less productive. Same for me in life, lots of people expect things to be given to them like an education and an NHS etc. Far too many people wanting to take and far too few wanting to work really hard for it and go get it. IMO of course.

You have been on waaaaaay too many management training courses.

Im not intentionally blaming the system. The system is what it is. I agree there are far deeper causes, and in education i'm 99% in favour of the parent been at fault. But how do you convince a parent thats 5th generation no education that their child should get one? Especially if they dont see anything wrong with where they are currently.

Can't agree that Government and its policies are not the main driver of attitudes in society. If it isn't then that in itself demonstrates its own total failure. As for a liberal society my point was that it has stretched too far in the direction of liberal, not that we should change to some other order. I don't think the balance is right.

Anyway I'll sign off on this one. The only thing stopping me slitting my wrists right now is the thought of our pack taking the field next year.

And there's the big question. One I have no answer to either. We've developed a culture that simply doesn't value education despite all the talk about it being important. The media have a large chunk of the blame IMO with their obsession with celebrity and constant promotion of people who are living the good life simply because of their fame.

I don't know how to turn it around TBH. There are good people out their trying their best, but they are by and large fighting a losing battle.

What Government policies are responsible for the lack of regard for a decent education? There has been a huge amount of money and effort put into convincing people that education is important, but many still ignore the message. I blame a lot of it on the media, who like to moan about poor educational standards while celebrating people with little education and talent all over their showbiz pages.

Attitudes in this country (and the USA) are largely driven by the media, and they're only interested in ratings and circulation.

We actually have one of the least liberal societies in Europe, so I honestly think that's a Red Herring.

But doesnt this then link back in to one of my previous points about benefit state? Some people think its fine to get no education, get a council house, claim benefits, and pass the legacy to their kids. This is the demographic of our population that need to be forced into some kind of education/employment, someone somehow needs to get them to see the value of earning a living. Maybe im generaising too much here and i dont know the answers, but as a country we feel very broken.

I agree totally but I've signed off on this thread so ignore me.