FORUMS > Hull FC > Raynor in court |
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| Quote: Big Dave T "I know that technically its a grey area and actually the employer can do as they choose as long as they approach it correctly/appropriately. (its a hell of a strong arguement to talk about damage to a brand even if the person hasnt been found guilty etc, even by being charged)'"
Obviously it depends upon exactly what Raynor's contract says but I should have thought the club would be on very dodgy ground if it were to try to terminate it on the grounds of damage to reputation/brand and/or bringing the club into disrepute in respect of allegations which Raynor apparently denies and remains unconvicted of. If Raynor were later to be acquitted or the charges were dropped he would have a substantial claim against the club which would also have damaged its own brand (if any further damage were possible!) by its own actions. A judge would expect an employer to await the outcome of the criminal proceedings and I can't see any prudent employer doing otherwise.
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| Quote: Nobeerineasthull "Obviously it depends upon exactly what Raynor's contract says but I should have thought the club would be on very dodgy ground if it were to try to terminate it on the grounds of damage to reputation/brand and/or bringing the club into disrepute in respect of allegations which Raynor apparently denies and remains unconvicted of. If Raynor were later to be acquitted or the charges were dropped he would have a substantial claim against the club which would also have damaged its own brand (if any further damage were possible!) by its own actions. A judge would expect an employer to await the outcome of the criminal proceedings and I can't see any prudent employer doing otherwise.'"
Thats where the grey area is. It doesnt actually have to be written into his contract about damage to the brand and bringing the club into disrepute. It can actually go unwritten because all professional sports people should be aware of the detrimental impact made by this kind of thing. Guilty or not he has been charged. That in itself can be classed as bringing the game into disrepute. Guilty or not he has damaged our brand. What happens if he is fund not guilty is a whole different kettle of fish.
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| Quote: Ian P "Sorry I am one of those union types
I know, thats why i said it to get a bite!
I dont think they will suspend him. Another option weve not touched on would simply to offer him a compromise agreement and pay him off. May be in both parties interest to take it.
Doesnt have to impact on his job here, his job is in the public domain so bring in the brand impact weve been speaking about.
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| Could it not be seen as "gross misconduct" (what this consists of should be set out somewhere)?
Hutch was sacked for that, so no reason why A N Other couldn't be. Can't imagine that there isn't a standard set of conditions in players' contracts.
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| Quote: Big Dave T "I know, thats why i said it to get a bite!
I suppose he could be found entirely innocent and go on to score 30 tries for us next season? (okay sideways tries, I know)
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| Quote: downtheante "I suppose he could be found entirely innocent and go on to score 30 tries for us next season? (okay sideways tries, I know)'"
Indeed.
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| Quote: Chris28 "Could it not be seen as "gross misconduct" (what this consists of should be set out somewhere)?
Hutch was sacked for that, so no reason why A N Other couldn't be. Can't imagine that there isn't a standard set of conditions in players' contracts.'"
Its highly likely it would be dismissal for gross misconduct on the grounds of bringing the club into disrepute. For clarity the grounds can be set in the contracts of employment but dont have to be.
For example, my employment contact states that i will be subject to the internal disciplinary process if deemed to have acted inappropriately in my role. Inappropriate is subjective and depends on the situation. Gross misconduct will lead to immediate dismissal. Gross Misconduct is subjective and again depends on the situation and the offence.
All very vague but useful when wanting to dismiss without reason!!
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| maybe its not his only indiscretion
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| Was it the Hull players who signed some kind of agreement covering their expected behaviour or was it another club?
Seem to remember someone doing it.
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| Quote: Big Dave T "Thats where the grey area is. It doesnt actually have to be written into his contract about damage to the brand and bringing the club into disrepute. It can actually go unwritten because all professional sports people should be aware of the detrimental impact made by this kind of thing. Guilty or not he has been charged. That in itself can be classed as bringing the game into disrepute. Guilty or not he has damaged our brand. What happens if he is fund not guilty is a whole different kettle of fish.
Going to have to disagree with you here Dave. I don't think its grey at all.
He can't be guilty of bringing the club into disrepute merely by being charged with something he may be innocent of.
If the club wanted to suspend him pending the court case it would be able to but it would be very badly advised indeed to dismiss him on the basis of as yet unproven allegations.
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| Quote: Big Dave T "Its highly likely it would be dismissal for gross misconduct on the grounds of bringing the club into disrepute. For clarity the grounds can be set in the contracts of employment but dont have to be.
For example, my employment contact states that i will be subject to the internal disciplinary process if deemed to have acted inappropriately in my role. Inappropriate is subjective and depends on the situation. Gross misconduct will lead to immediate dismissal. Gross Misconduct is subjective and again depends on the situation and the offence.
All very vague but useful when wanting to dismiss without reason!!
Or if they're crap!
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| Quote: Nobeerineasthull "Going to have to disagree with you here Dave. I don't think its grey at all.
He can't be guilty of bringing the club into disrepute merely by being charged with something he may be innocent of.
If the club wanted to suspend him pending the court case it would be able to but it would be very badly advised indeed to dismiss him on the basis of as yet unproven allegations.'"
Agree with you there Nobeer, some here are effectively saying you can dismiss on the basis of a charge alone which is complete and utter rubbish.
If a person is not guilty of a charge then where would the disrepute or brand damage be if the person is innocent of said charge.
Obviously a guilty verdict could put a person in the realms of gross misconduct etc.
Dismissing on the basis of a charge alone without a resultant would see an employee win a tribunal even if that charge were to be upheld further down the line.
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| I have to say what an absolute load of tosh this thread is with a lot of people discussing things they know nothing about.
All we need are the torches and pitchforks.
This is being blown so out of proportion I think people are losing sight of the facts.
What he has done supposedly, is stupid. It's not worth sacking imo but I suppose it suits a lot of peoples' agendas this way.
And before the obvious posts, no I'm not Gareth, a relative or friend just someone who is keeping a level head and more interested in the club as a whole and what best suits them.
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