I don't think we were dominated in the ruck we just lost the ball too much. Miller had a poor game although it wasn't for the want of trying. Horne was continuously our biggest attacking threat until he got injured although I have no problem with his non-selection due to lack of fitness. That said before the game many on here were happy to see Crooks selected but not Horne on the basis of his fitness which seemed a bit odd. Whether he would have changed anything had he played is pure conjecture - I tend to think that he would have offered a more direct running threat. Whilst I'm a fan of Whiting as a sub he continues to be our most (only) creative forward and proved again yesterday that he can win attacking collisions and offload to supporting players. I'm not sure he can do the minutes Westerman does so maybe bench is the only option however he causes defences problems and maybe we need a bit less graft and a bit more craft.

There's no creativity because our halves are playing behind a beaten pack most weeks, and any team that is aggressive in defence can smother us.

I think Westerman could cause problems to defences, unfortunately we appear to have coached his ballhandling skills out of him and prefer him to act as a 3rd prop. I'm sick of seeing players like Westy and Ellis just donkeying the ball up, it's a waste

I agree wholeheartedly with the 3rd prop bit. Whiting seems to manage some creativity/offloading wherever he plays in the majority of games so I'm not sure whether it's actively discouraged. He came on for Ellis yesterday and offloaded far more than Ellis has been doing. Not saying he's better just pointing out that it can be/is done.

Has anyone considered that the reason why Whiting is consistently more creative than our other back row forwards is because he doesn't play long minutes? That using him off the bench is deliberate and leaves him the energy to be creative?

Maybe, but then the others don't seem to manage it as effectively even when they're fresh. That said, I find the props' lack of any discernible offloading ability more frustrating than the back row's creativity deficit.

I've mentioned that as a possibility. However I believe he is also of the 'old school' ball playing ability type player who basically knows how to play that type of football. For some reason it hasn't been 'coached out' of him (I don't really run with that theory). It's why I like him as a player - he gets his arms free and turns in the tackle as a result of winning the initial contact. He's no world beater and gives away some penalties but he has footballing skills. I'm not convinced some of our other back rowers are as good in that area.

Westerman was like that when he first came here. Now not so much. Even Tickle has gone backwards in this regard. I'm wondering if it's a deliberate tactic or a result of the long minutes both players do. Otherwise it's a bit of a mystery.

Probably notepad, if you have word wrap enabled then text can appear like that when copy/pasted.

That's garbage. We consistent spend time in the opposition 20 and offer no threat. Nothing to do with a beaten pack but a lack of people knowing what to do to create opportunities and flair

Its a combination of both; i.e. lack of a settled halfback combination and a lightweight pack that gets steam rollered by the opposition forwards. We need some big, badass forwards to lay a platform for the halfbacks and backs.

Maybe they gave up looking to offload because no bugger ever backed them up?