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Quote: Robbo4 "Completely disagree. His general play has been far better this season. Better tackling and less attempted "big shots" that invariably completely missed. Less errors including those daft offloads he used to try which I assume is as a result of being given a creative role meaning he doesn't feel like he has to force things. Less penalties including the needless ones he was giving away.

In other words he has cut out the things he was getting criticised for.'"


Some interesting stats for you.

Joe Westerman missed tackles per game: 2014 - 3.25, 2013 - 1.8
Errors per game: 2014 - 0.5, 2013 - 1
Offloads per game: 2014 - 1.75, 2013 - 1.18
Penalties per game: 2014 - 1, 2013 - 0.6

So you're right about the errors, but with all of the other things you said the opposite is actually true. His tackling rate has actually got worse, he's missing more, averaging more offloads, and more penalties.

In other words he hasn't cut out the things he was getting criticised for.

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Quote: Robbo4 "Claiming the fact he is playing really well now proves he shouldn't have been criticised last season when in many people's opinion he was playing poorly makes no sense.'"


You're right, it doesn't. I'm glad I never.

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Quote: Kosh "Westerman missed 6% of his tackles last season. His number of tackles was second only to Houghton. As a comparison, Whiting missed 5% of his tackles.

He made 28 errors at an average of 8 errors per 100 carries. This was our top error rate but not by much.

He gave away 3 more penalties all season than Whiting (those two were our worst offenders). And he was hardly the only one giving away needless penalties either.

There's some selective memory going on, but not where you seem to think.

By the way - his missed tackle count is currently worse (9%) and he's still joint top of penalties conceded. His error count is much better though.'"


You beat me to it. It's not that he's improved what people criticised him for, because in fact he's currently worse than last year at most of it. It's more that he's finally being used for what he's best at, and in much stronger positions. Now that people are seeing that, they seem to fixating less on his every flaw.

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Quote: carl_spackler "Some interesting stats for you.

Joe Westerman missed tackles per game

Those stats mean nothing without context as you well know.

Players will always miss tackles and give away penalties it was the manner of them that caused me to criticise Joe. Take his offloads as an example, so far this year his offloads have been at the right time and they've actually been "on" whereas in the past it has been such a low percentage play that it was never going to come off.

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Quote: Kosh "Westerman missed 6% of his tackles last season. His number of tackles was second only to Houghton. As a comparison, Whiting missed 5% of his tackles.

He made 28 errors at an average of 8 errors per 100 carries. This was our top error rate but not by much.

He gave away 3 more penalties all season than Whiting (those two were our worst offenders). And he was hardly the only one giving away needless penalties either.

There's some selective memory going on, but not where you seem to think.

By the way - his missed tackle count is currently worse (9%) and he's still joint top of penalties conceded. His error count is much better though.'"

What's Whiting got to do with it? When he makes mistakes I criticise him as well just like any other player. I criticise Houghton for parts of his game for instance. Why Westerman should be so protected by certain posters on this forum I have no idea.

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Quote: Robbo4 "What's Whiting got to do with it? When he makes mistakes I criticise him as well just like any other player. I criticise Houghton for parts of his game for instance. Why Westerman should be so protected by certain posters on this forum I have no idea.'"

Protected? Have you been reading the same forum as me?

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Quote: Robbo4 "Those stats mean nothing without context as you well know.'"

Yeah, people always say that when they don't support their argument.

The stats back up what I and others saw last season and this. They don't agree with what you and others claim happened. In the absence of any other means of confirmation that's all we have to go on.

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Quote: Robbo4 "Those stats mean nothing without context as you well know.

Players will always miss tackles and give away penalties it was the manner of them that caused me to criticise Joe. Take his offloads as an example, so far this year his offloads have been at the right time and they've actually been "on" whereas in the past it has been such a low percentage play that it was never going to come off.'"


I conceded the error point to you. I agree with that and the offload issue that goes with it. I still disagree about the rest. He's given some silly penalties away already this season just as he always has (and just as has always been the case, not alone), and his tackling is not really any different.

The only difference IMO is that the way he's being utilised is letting him have more of an influence on the team, resulting in it being easier to see the positive side of him. As a result I think people are now cutting him more of the slack I personally think he has always deserved.

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Quote: Robbo4 "What's Whiting got to do with it? When he makes mistakes I criticise him as well just like any other player. I criticise Houghton for parts of his game for instance. Why Westerman should be so protected by certain posters on this forum I have no idea.'"

I used Whiting as a comparison because he was a player with a similar performance who didn't attract the same level of criticism. Had another player been closer I'd have used them.

You've been posting long enough to know I 'protect' any player who I think gets criticised unfairly. Westerman is just the latest whipping boy.

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Needs to be spelled for me, a couple of his errors/penalties this year have been later in games. Spelling him for 10 or 15 minutes could address this. Could also allow us to give Heremaia more minutes without losing Houghton's graft.

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Quote: Kosh "Yeah, people always say that when they don't support their argument.

The stats back up what I and others saw last season and this. They don't agree with what you and others claim happened. In the absence of any other means of confirmation that's all we have to go on.'"


This is what I don't understand. If I and a few others (seemingly including you) hold similar opinions to those we did last year, and the stats have also stayed fairly similar, why would it be us having selective memories?

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Quote: Kosh "I used Whiting as a comparison because he was a player with a similar performance who didn't attract the same level of criticism. Had another player been closer I'd have used them.'"


I've been harangued for doing this before, don't go down that rabbit hole. FWIW I completely understand why you did so, they're the ideal comparison and illustrate the point perfectly.

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Quote: *1865* "Needs to be spelled for me, a couple of his errors/penalties this year have been later in games. Spelling him for 10 or 15 minutes could address this. Could also allow us to give Heremaia more minutes without losing Houghton's graft.'"


+1. Would much rather increase Heremaia's minutes this way than in the halves, personally.

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Quote: Kosh "Yeah, people always say that when they don't support their argument.

The stats back up what I and others saw last season and this. They don't agree with what you and others claim happened. In the absence of any other means of confirmation that's all we have to go on.'"


I'll give an example then. Last season he gave away a ridiculous penalty by running straight across a player chasing a kick right in front of the referee when there was absolutely no need. I criticised him for that because it was plain dumb. Has he done anything like that so far this season? Giving away a penalty for holding on slightly too long is completely different as that is a fine line.

You can go on thinking it's some sort of vendetta against the specific player if you like but it's simply not true, in my case at least.

ccs
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Going back to stats for a moment, it's a shame the OPTA stats don't include games and minutes played (unless I'm missing something).
They would then provide a much more accurate comparison.

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