I guess the fact that its not simple means that we are currently avoiding it but surely it should be attempted anyway. Billions wasted every year from what i read.

We aren't avoiding it. The welfare system now is significantly different and tougher than it was 10 years ago. There is still more to do, but it's hardly being ignored.

Also you want to be careful about believing what you read about waste in the welfare system. It's a popular hobby-horse for tabloids and politicians alike, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to revenue lost through tax avoidance and evasion, for instance. And fixing that is something that is being avoided by both Tories and Labour.

I was implying there was only an issue with the welfare system. I'm aware of huge issues right across the board including the welfare system. Problem is that in the public sector/government in general these things take far too long to sort at at far too great a cost. The major reform needed in the area above is around the structures of the organisations and the sign-off/empowerment/authorisation levels given to the employees to make a difference rather than everything being ratified and signed of at senior levels.

Have you seen some of the muppets that work in the public sector? The last thing most (not all, by any means) of those people need is more authority.

We could make a start by increasing the minimum wage, while pegging base benefits.

But then we'd have every tory, the CBI, Littlejohn et al repeating their prophesies of doom because eni fule no that paying someone a living wage would bring the country financial disaster.

In case you hadnt guessed my opening line was meant to say 'I wasnt implying'

I have seen some of the muppets yeah, and a lot of the muppets conform to the title because of the lack of opportunity to make a difference. Often 'on the shop floor' they know better than the decision makers at senior levels. Public sector needs to instill some pride in people jobs again, making them the decision makers largely through empowerment is the first large step in making a huge culture change, which ultimately is whats needed.

I was a student when minimum wage came out and thought it was a good thing. On reflection and viewing the reality around it all it has done is meant that products and services cost more to fund the wage increase for employees and taxes have gone up to cover a variety of other benefits. IMO the minumum wage was a huge mistake in the first instance and has lead to the situation we're in now.

The problem is, for every person that might make a positive difference through empowerment, there are two or three who will make a pigs of it.



What better way to encourage people to stay on benefits than making sure the only job they can get pays next to f*ck all.

Yes there may be the ones that cant deal with being empowered, especially in an org that isnt used to it. This is where good management comes in to support and coach them to deal with it and idenfity the people that cant and make sure they arent put under the pressure to do it.

What better way to encourage people to stay on benefits than making sure they are rewarded far more than lots of people on the existing minimum wage!
The solution for me would have been to not bring in the minimum wage and to absolutely strip back benefits. Only benefits that would remain would be where people have absolutely no choice about working or not like some disability benefits etc

Would make people value education and qualifications more.

All sounds great in theory. And totally impractical in reality.

The bit about rhetoric vs reality is the issue. For things to change people have got to believe it can and get on board the journey. 'Be the change you want to see'

Guess public sectors need motivating to get on board and once they start to see the difference the motivation is there automatically. Ive seen it happen.

The arguement for minimum wage can be both sides, put it up or drop it. We are both obviously in different camps there. I know people that choose to not work because they get more on benefits than they would at work. You telling me that thats not an issue? (even with the minimuw wage. Benefits and minimum wage should both drop for me)

Hello toryboy, don't tell me, you also believe the "trickle-down" theory works too?