FORUMS > Hull FC > Westerman were he should be !!! |
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| Quote: *1865* "He was our most consistent forward last year too.
Clap trap indeed.'"
Is he playing at a much higher level this year than last year?
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| Quote: Robbo4 "Is he playing at a much higher level this year than last year?'"
Not for me. He's showing the same effort, commitment and skill he always has, he's just doing it in a role that's suited to his skill set this year.
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| Quote: Robbo4 "The fact he's getting recognition for much improved performances shows that he wasn't performing previously so was rightly criticised. All this high horse clap trap based on selective memory is just boring.'"
It's not selective memory if you weren't heavily criticising, though, is it? The very point is that some of us genuinely thought the level of criticism was unfair and incorrect, and said so at the time. Stating the same now is the definition of consistency.
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| Quote: *1865* "Not for me. He's showing the same effort, commitment and skill he always has, he's just doing it in a role that's suited to his skill set this year.'"
Same for me, and the point I made earlier. It's not so much that his play has massively improved, rather that he's been able to be more effective because the circumstances around him have changed.
A bit like Briscoe's start to the season. He's no better a player than he was for us, he's just on a better platform to show it.
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| Quote: carl_spackler "Same for me, and the point I made earlier. It's not so much that his play has massively improved, rather that he's been able to be more effective because the circumstances around him have changed.
A bit like Briscoe's start to the season. He's no better a player than he was for us, he's just on a better platform to show it.'"
Completely disagree. His general play has been far better this season. Better tackling and less attempted "big shots" that invariably completely missed. Less errors including those daft offloads he used to try which I assume is as a result of being given a creative role meaning he doesn't feel like he has to force things. Less penalties including the needless ones he was giving away.
In other words he has cut out the things he was getting criticised for.
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| Quote: carl_spackler "It's not selective memory if you weren't heavily criticising, though, is it? The very point is that some of us genuinely thought the level of criticism was unfair and incorrect, and said so at the time. Stating the same now is the definition of consistency.'"
Claiming the fact he is playing really well now proves he shouldn't have been criticised last season when in many people's opinion he was playing poorly makes no sense.
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| Its all about opinions. Some say he looks better because he was poor in previous seasons. Others, me included, say he looks better because he's playing where he should in a proper structured team. As others have mentioned the general levels of fitness are much higher across the board so he's not the only one who appears to be better than previously.
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| Quote: Robbo4 "Claiming the fact he is playing really well now proves he shouldn't have been criticised last season when in many people's opinion he was playing poorly makes no sense.'"
You're not grasping the point. Westerman has always been a skilled loose forward who plays at a great level of intensity, him playing really well now is down to him being utilised effectively. Obviously there'll still be some improvement down to him as he is playing much more confidently, as is often the case when these things happen.
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| Quote: the cal train "Your not grasping the point. Westerman has always been a skilled loose forward who plays at a great level of intensity, him playing really well now is down to him being utilised effectively. Obviously there'll still be some improvement down to him as he is playing much more confidently, as is often the case when these things happen.'"
I'm not grasping the point? Really?
The fact a player is skilled and plays with intensity doesn't mean they are immune from criticism if they make poor errors of judgement or perform poorly. I've never questioned his effort.
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| Quote: Robbo4 "Completely disagree. His general play has been far better this season. Better tackling and less attempted "big shots" that invariably completely missed. Less errors including those daft offloads he used to try which I assume is as a result of being given a creative role meaning he doesn't feel like he has to force things. Less penalties including the needless ones he was giving away.
In other words he has cut out the things he was getting criticised for.'"
Westerman missed 6% of his tackles last season. His number of tackles was second only to Houghton. As a comparison, Whiting missed 5% of his tackles.
He made 28 errors at an average of 8 errors per 100 carries. This was our top error rate but not by much.
He gave away 3 more penalties all season than Whiting (those two were our worst offenders). And he was hardly the only one giving away needless penalties either.
There's some selective memory going on, but not where you seem to think.
By the way - his missed tackle count is currently worse (9%) and he's still joint top of penalties conceded. His error count is much better though.
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| Quote: Robbo4 "Completely disagree. His general play has been far better this season. Better tackling and less attempted "big shots" that invariably completely missed. Less errors including those daft offloads he used to try which I assume is as a result of being given a creative role meaning he doesn't feel like he has to force things. Less penalties including the needless ones he was giving away.
In other words he has cut out the things he was getting criticised for.'"
Some interesting stats for you.
Joe Westerman missed tackles per game: 2014 - 3.25, 2013 - 1.8
Errors per game: 2014 - 0.5, 2013 - 1
Offloads per game: 2014 - 1.75, 2013 - 1.18
Penalties per game: 2014 - 1, 2013 - 0.6
So you're right about the errors, but with all of the other things you said the opposite is actually true. His tackling rate has actually got worse, he's missing more, averaging more offloads, and more penalties.
In other words he hasn't cut out the things he was getting criticised for.
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| Quote: Robbo4 "Claiming the fact he is playing really well now proves he shouldn't have been criticised last season when in many people's opinion he was playing poorly makes no sense.'"
You're right, it doesn't. I'm glad I never.
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| Quote: Kosh "Westerman missed 6% of his tackles last season. His number of tackles was second only to Houghton. As a comparison, Whiting missed 5% of his tackles.
He made 28 errors at an average of 8 errors per 100 carries. This was our top error rate but not by much.
He gave away 3 more penalties all season than Whiting (those two were our worst offenders). And he was hardly the only one giving away needless penalties either.
There's some selective memory going on, but not where you seem to think.
By the way - his missed tackle count is currently worse (9%) and he's still joint top of penalties conceded. His error count is much better though.'"
You beat me to it. It's not that he's improved what people criticised him for, because in fact he's currently worse than last year at most of it. It's more that he's finally being used for what he's best at, and in much stronger positions. Now that people are seeing that, they seem to fixating less on his every flaw.
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| Quote: carl_spackler "Some interesting stats for you.
Joe Westerman missed tackles per game
Those stats mean nothing without context as you well know.
Players will always miss tackles and give away penalties it was the manner of them that caused me to criticise Joe. Take his offloads as an example, so far this year his offloads have been at the right time and they've actually been "on" whereas in the past it has been such a low percentage play that it was never going to come off.
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| Quote: Kosh "Westerman missed 6% of his tackles last season. His number of tackles was second only to Houghton. As a comparison, Whiting missed 5% of his tackles.
He made 28 errors at an average of 8 errors per 100 carries. This was our top error rate but not by much.
He gave away 3 more penalties all season than Whiting (those two were our worst offenders). And he was hardly the only one giving away needless penalties either.
There's some selective memory going on, but not where you seem to think.
By the way - his missed tackle count is currently worse (9%) and he's still joint top of penalties conceded. His error count is much better though.'"
What's Whiting got to do with it? When he makes mistakes I criticise him as well just like any other player. I criticise Houghton for parts of his game for instance. Why Westerman should be so protected by certain posters on this forum I have no idea.
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