Is that pessimism or just realism? I reckon you're about right with 7th/8th. We aren't quite strong enough (but we're half decent) right across the park.

We have spent the max cap so we should be as strong as anyone and if McGuire had joined us then we would be top 3 NOW ! Agar is the weak link NOT the players. However if we win the next 3 then I will run with him as a fan.
IF we lose 2 of the next 3 then he has to go BUT he won't

Nonsense. We've had years of crap recruitment and retention which has led to us paying over the odds for average players. We went some way towards addressing it in the off season but still have work to do.

Agar is not the only problem.

We are miles away from being able to seriously challenge for silverware and not just because of the third rate coaching set-up currently in place.

Out of our current squad (and based chiefly on form this season), only three players would unquestionably be capable of holding down a place in a Grand Final winning team, those players being Fitzgibbon, O'Meley & Manu. I would think that every Coach and supporters of the other thirteen SL clubs would welcome any of those three as worthy additions to a side aiming to be the best.
I would also possibly add Whiting to that list as well, particularly if a coach was able to fully utilise his undoubted Rugby brain, although there is a question mark over whether he could claim a starting spot in a side sitting atop the table.

Added to that are three other players (Long, Berrigan, Horne) who obviously have played, successfully, at the very pinnacle of the game. However, all three have experienced major problems with fitness/injury in the last twelve months and there has to be a question mark against all three being able to consistently reach the heights previously graced. Fully fit and injury free, yes they can, but therein lies the crux of the problem with those three players.

We also have a batch of promising young players (Briscoe, Briscoe, Lynne, Houghton, Hall?) who with the correct coaching and development may reach the top of the game, but who at the moment are clearly still some way short of Grade A status.

That leaves us with the bulk of our first team squad, (Tansey, Calderwood, Yeaman, Dowes, Radford, Tickle, Washbrook, Cusack, Lauaki, Moa, etc, etc) and I'm afraid to say they are nothing more than mid-table trundlers. Not necessarily bad players, but not exactly outstanding either, and no team made up with the bulk of those players is ever going to be doing a lap of honour around Old Trafford in October (this year or any year).

If we were able to build a team from scratch (hypothetically speaking) to win a Grand Final then I reckon only those three players listed above (Fitzgibbon, O'Meley, Manu) would definately be assured of their place in that squad. For the rest, there has to be serious question marks against their continued presence (too old, too injury prone, unproven, or just simply not good enough) within a side challenging for honours.

And, of course, all of this is before we address the major problem of our coach, the single biggest handicap within the club. But win lose or draw in the next three games, we're stuck with him, at least until the end of next season at the very earliest in my opinion, so I think some of us are going to have to lower our sights a little, because I'm afraid under the current coaching & playing set-up, the only way any of us will be attending Wembley & Old Trafford is as neutrals.

Interesting post and I agree with a few points.

However I disagree with a couple of points I dont think we are miles off a top coach like Smith or Maguire and a 2 top players (Halfback and centre) would see us challenge for silverwear, look at Wigan they havent signed anyone and have gone up to the next level by just getting a top class coach.

I think you are being harsh on a couple of players also Moa, Yeaman, Caldewood, Tickle and Tansey are far better than plodders and good enough (if used right) to play for a top team challenging for silverwear.

Interesting post. hudds, wire, wigan, saints and to a lesser extent leeds, all have plenty of "average, middle of the road" players and seem to do much better than us.

I'd like to see you take one of those teams, and compare them player-for-player (with first choice 17s) and say you'd take more of our players than theirs!! There'd be a tenner in it for you if you can (and I'm a tight barsteward)

Jake has a fair point regards no team been stacked full of A grade stars, how can they be with the Salary Cap in place?

Look at the Hudds team and they have a number of players who could be classed as 'middle of the road' but as a team they are potential challengers.

Indeed he does have a point. Every team has to have the "solid" performers rather than 17 superstars, becuase of the cap.

But as BP1 says, we probably only have 3 players that would "walk" into any other side, and a few top youngsters who are more about potential than anything else at the moment. I would say that Wigan/Wire/Saints/Hudds have a lot more than 3 that would walk into our side, and I think their "middle of the road" players are better than our "middle of the road" too!

In summary, we have a decent side, but not top 4. I think people need to be realistic!

Nathan Brown.

Look at the different in Kevin Brown he has gone from average SL to one of the best halfbacks in SL since N Brown has been there, Agar hasnt improved any players at Hull that much, in fact some have gone backwards.

Same with Darrell Griffin IMO. Aspinwall and G Horne in the back row! Brown is certainly doing something right!