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| Quote Starbug="Starbug"You will never change the mindset of any 2 nd tier competition that has previously had yearly P and R and clubs in it that have graced the top flight
On your second point , you seem to be forgetting that for every winner , there is a loser , so yes there will always be a bottom club , always rubbish teams of varying degrees , nobody ever celebrates it , they never have , don't pretend they have'"
Exactly, so an argument which states we should keep P+R to keep the interest up for lower teams is clearly nonsense |
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"Exactly, so an argument which states we should keep P+R to keep the interest up for lower teams is clearly nonsense'"
Lower teams in SL , or in the Championship ? |
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"Exactly, so an argument which states we should keep P+R to keep the interest up for lower teams is clearly nonsense'"
So the post you made earlier is clearly rubbish |
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| Quote vikings 4 ever="vikings 4 ever"One of the biggest problems of licencing is that its nigh on impossible for a club outside of SL to build the sort of club that the RFL (say that they) are looking for. Realisitically clubs should be self sufficient and the wealth of the owner shouldn't decide how big a club is. Most of the clubs in the Championship cannot afford to run both a reserve team and an academy - some clubs can't afford to run one never mind both. Also the lack of interest in the Championship since they took P+R away has affected attendances and therefore income. The only reason why Widnes are so well placed to apply for a licence is because we are lucky to have an owner who is prepared to fund the organisation until we can get into SL. IMO after the next round of licences, no club in the Champioship will achieve the 2,500 average attendance that is seen as good enough to apply for SL. As far as I am aware, in the last 5 years, Widnes are the only current Championship team who has consistantly managed to average over 2,500. Halifax managed it this year, but only after miraculously acheiving nearly 5,000 for their last home game
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I think the point that Smokey is not getting, or refuses to take into account, is that without P+R there is very little hope below SL. Smokey and others say that just winning the Championship should be enough to keep fans and clubs motivated, but as Starbug has already said, for clubs who have been there and done it in the past, fans are just not interested in watching their team stuck in a 2nd rate division. This is only going to lead to lower attendances, smaller clubs and probably more clubs getting into financial difficulty. Transport 10 years into the future - how many more clubs are going to the way of Blackpool? Surely a very weak 2nd tier is no good for the game as a whole. How can pressure be kept on SL clubs to keep improving if the threat of relegation is going to be non-existant. We all know that the top 8 or 9 in SL won't be out of SL for a very very long time and even the bottom 5 or 6 sides know they will only ever be out if/when the RFL want to admit an expansion club again. IMO it shouldn't just be Wakey who are scared of going out of SL this time round, Cas and Salford haven't fulfilled their promises of a new stadium and the less said about Crusaders and Harlequins the better. HOWEVER there just aren't the clubs waiting in the wings to take these clubs places in SL and in the future IMO there will be even less potential clubs applying for SL. Licencing is a good idea, but IMO it needs tweaking to make sure the 2nd tier is kept in touch instead of it become ever more distant from SL.
I personally like the idea of a 2 tier SL - 10 in each division. P+R between the 2 divisions with more money to the top division than the 2nd. The RFL could still operate a licencing system for entry into the 2nd tier and maybe strict minimum standards for entry into the top division.'"
I dont massively disagree with what you are saying (though i think you over-estimate the importance of P+R, it didnt really affect that many clubs in the championship as there wasnt that many capable of getting promoted) but what you fail to acknowledge is because there is a limited amount of clubs who are able to compete in SL it only affects a limited amount of clubs. It is the elite competition for the game, and very few of those in the lower leagues, in their current form, are capable of being elite, so very few are affected by the limit to the amount who try.
You are right, there arent clubs waiting in the wings to take these clubs places, there just arent. And it is better that we wait until a club is capable of replacing one of the SL clubs than relegating a club for a different club which will simply fail to complete.
The two tier SL wont work for 3 reasons, 1) we dont have 20 clubs capable of being SL clubs. They just arent there. We would simply end up with a SL and championship as we have now, but with some of the weaker SL clubs in the 2nd tier, being weakend by their relegation.
2) we dont have the player pool in the heartlands to sustain another 6 clubs ( 5 if Toulouse are promoted) Hull KR and Wakefield are in SL now and need 10+ overseas players, some not so cracking. Trying to find another 200+ players will simply dilute the quality of both competitions.
and lastly 3) We havent proven the appetite for 2nd tier RL to fans, sponsors, and TV companies. |
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| Quote Starbug="Starbug"Lower teams in SL , or in the Championship ?'"
which do you think? do you think the teams in the lower end of the championship struggle because a competition they cant win doesnt lead to promotion they arent eligible for?
or do you think it would be the lower SL clubs, the ones it actually affected? |
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| Quote Starbug="Starbug"So the post you made earlier is clearly rubbish'"
So i post something, you agree with it, i confirm your agreement, you dismiss it as rubbish. Trolly Mctroll-troll is getting older and poorer. |
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| I'm quite frankly getting bored with this now. I've never met someone on here so blinkered as yourself.
Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"Either way, P+R doesnt help the championships.'"
It keeps the dream alive.
Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"You would probably be wrong.'"
Care to back up your blinkered views?
Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"Besides, how often in SL has the two teams who could have been relegated faced each other? once? twice? more often than not its a massive damp squib '"
You clearly don't know much about this do you.
Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"Im not, all clubs can be developed, and can join the party. The only difference is that im pragmatic enough to understand not all clubs can be in the party at once'"
P&R means a different one each year gets the chance. Your way means they have to wait for considerable time to be told to sod off. |
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| Quote Starbug="Starbug"So the post you made earlier is clearly rubbish'"
I think he is too biased and blinkered by the shiny empty stands of clubs like Huddersfield to be taken seriously. |
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| Quote Mr Slithers="Mr Slithers"I'm quite frankly getting bored with this now. I've never met someone on here so blinkered as yourself.'" I think you will find the feeling is mutual.
Quote Mr SlithersIt keeps the dream alive.'" Dreams dont pay the bills.
Quote Mr SlithersCare to back up your blinkered views?'" It is your assertion. If you want to use it in the course of the debate it is up to you to prove it.
Quote Mr SlithersYou clearly don't know much about this do you'" Well maybe you can elucidate me with some other examples rather than relying on one which happened 5 years ago?
Quote Mr SlithersP&R means a different one each year gets the chance. Your way means they have to wait for considerable time to be told to sod off.'"
One which isnt necessarily ready for promotion, isnt necessarily better than the club it is replacing, isnt necessarily in a position to benefit from promotion, and isnt necessarily going to contribute to SL. |
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"which do you think? do you think the teams in the lower end of the championship struggle because a competition they cant win doesnt lead to promotion they arent eligible for?
or do you think it would be the lower SL clubs, the ones it actually affected?'"
By ' lower ' I meant the bottom of SL and the top of the Championship , ie the ones actually affected by licencing |
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"So i post something, you agree with it, i confirm your agreement, you dismiss it as rubbish. Trolly Mctroll-troll is getting older and poorer.'"
You posted this
Quote SmokeyTAThe teams at the bottom do have something to play for, getting into the play offs. Very very few people want to watch a game to decide which of the two teams has been the test over that season. Why are you so focused on clubs being crap than being good'"
It would look to me as you are in someway trying to suggest that just because we dont have relegation there are now no crap teams , there are always crap teams in every competition , having teams from the bottom half of SL in the play offs doesn't mean they arent crap , a system that means a club can lose most of its games and still be the winners of its competition is a farce |
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"I think you will find the feeling is mutual.
Dreams dont pay the bills.
Neither do Wakefield !!
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