There was no problem bringing up tha point you did I've related many times how cas have looked after their youth,what I complained about was the fact that folk on here were eager to get into a debate about the cas academy but not about our youths from a championship winning year. Regarding mathers while realizing the forum is open my comments about our fullback were a dressed to Wakefield fans about a Wakefield player can't we where hypocricy comes into it

Being unbiased its much easier to comment on the cas youth than our own because they have managed to bring more through into SL, maybe thats the problem.
I don't watch the youth set up, so i am in no place to comment on the why's and wherefores as others clearly are, but the ideal would be to bring through to fruition enough to make a future wakefield team exactly that - a team full of wakefield players, however a team like Huddersfield winning the minor shield proved you don't need to do that.
Money is a major contributing factor also.

a lot of the time, especially at Cas, injuries have meant we've no option but to expose 17/18 year olds to SL. I guess it stands them in good stead for the future, but hampers current performance.

One thing's for certain, it'll be much harder to promote junior exploitation in super league now P&R is back

I remember we had to do it in the Kear era when Pitts and a prop who's name I forget and Wildie and some others got their shot
They looked ok at first but it was soon obvious that many younger players can not take the full season of super league. They need to be brought in gradually. Pitts in my opininion is a good player and I'd have him back. Personally i think he'd have been better staying but it was worth finding out if he could mix it with the big boys I guess.
Gledhill another example of the same. He was just not quite ready for the game physically but was nearly there. I remeber playing Sts and being shocked how much more physically intimidating their youngsters were compared to Ben.

I understand why people say it but I don't buy in to the "just play them" idea to take a young kid into the top flight. They're progress should be managed.

An example that springs to mind for me is a kid coming to play rugby union in a team I captained. We were a decent side at a good club but not professional level. He was obviously good but still growing. He had been at a good club. They played him the second row and they battered him.
His dad asked if I'd look after him.
I spent the rest of the season just making sure none of the meat heads took advantage and he hada storming season. He was fitter than everyone else so gave him chance to feel what it was like to be hit by a grown up but had support around him with no risk of letting the team down.
To me that is where the lower divisions should be used. A potential super league player who is just a year or two too young can be introduced through the "feeder" club. They get a good player, we get a player with experience.
We had other students comimng to play. It helped the old men on the field as they did the speed work and we did the grunt work and we were undefeated for a long time.
Some of those youngsters didn't have the right attitude to it and didn't kick on. Some stayed with us. Some stopped playing. It gave them chance to find out.

Pop Tart, I'm unsure, do you think that the U21's was a better option than dual reg'ing for young players in that case???

I certainly do, also in a way to bring back 2 or 3 of the injured over 21's to match fitness rather than dual reg.

Kyle Bibb I think it was, ran 90 meters to drop it over the line in a challenge cup match if I recall

Personally, as long as the deal is a good one for all parties, I prefer the dual reg.
It's got a bad rep because of the teams playing injured players on a one off to bring them back through but the standard of player in the lower league is better in my opinion that at U19 or U21.
The difficulty of the transition to me is playing against more physically developed players, and you are not given that in an under 21s set up.
Because the player pool is not massive in rugby league you get the best kids playing super league already (a la Tomkins). You are not playing against the best U21s you are playing against those not ready for Super league yet possibly even 16/17. An average U19 could look good there when they will still struggle on the step up.
Whereas you get players that are either bigger but not quite as good, or more skillful but less fit because of part time setup in the lower leagues
Let's take whoever the next young centre is at Wakefield as an example. Assuming he is not quite ready yet and taking his first steps he would be playing against either younger players on their way up or 20/21 players not seen as good enough for even Wakefield/Cas/Salford etc. If he plays for Dewsbury he lines up against Menzie Yari or Jessie Joe Parker or even Danny Cowling who know their way about and will test them both physically and technically compared to the other kids learning their trade, without having the pressure of being the weakest link in the team.

It has to be done right to make it work.
Season long loans are better for all parties if you ask me, but it gets difficult when you have an injury crisis and would like them back.
It clearly works better when you have a big enough squad to keep some back. We don't have that I guess.
It would work best if we really did have a feeder club system but to change from what we have now to that is near impossible.

Yeah I see what you mean.

The flip side to this of courseis that, I know from Hunslet's assistant coach, when one week Paul McShane was going to Hunslet last year.

The Hunslet coaching staff found out on the Friday night, with the game being on Sunday, and McShane was unavailable to train with the Hunslet squad on the Saturday.

If we are going to P&R then this is a dynamic that is absolutely horrific for our semi-pro teams.

Obviously all the training the team had done that week had been rendered pointless.

I think a possible solution would be dual-reg'ing each player for a 2 or 4 week period so that the feeder club and player can get the best out of the deal.

It has to be far betetr structured. Otherwise they may as well be turning up for a kick about in the park

Bibb never looked like he had it no heart what so ever ,

dont come on here much now but managed to click on and view this thred so il throw a few things into the mix aswell.

as most of you know myself along with my good friend tony drury coached the title winning side a few years back now. that side was put together on a shoe string budget and built in a period over 18 months. lads were picked up from the under 17s who had been over looked by other clubs and mixed with lads on contracts and some youngsters. over a period of time we looked at individual players and the team aswell and decided to go off a lot what kear coached the first team and play and train our way. sessions were designed to bring skill levels up to scratch and to be game related. the title winning team was so well drilled it just flowed. we had a set of lads who trusted us with their lives and who would run through a brick wall if we asked them to do it they were tough and hard and all knew if their standards dropped they would be dropped. we got everything out of them and that year players who are now in top sl teams were demolished by our lads. were these lads ready for sl the following season, some of them maybe but they were better than the lads we signed from other clubs systems and they were our own. personally i dont think kear knew what to do with them. for me when you hit a level you need to kick again, no point playing reserves. get them to a club on loan but a club where they will get looked after behind good forwards.

just a point on identifying players, when looking at young players most develop at different rates of growth. body shape and size is important. look at lenghth of leg from ankle to knee thatl give a good indication on growth but the main thing for me in spotting players is leg speed and this applies to any position. no speed in legs and youve had it im affraid. il refer to ben gledhill great kid to talk to and coach but this was his downfall at top level leg speed.

when i moved onto the scouting team at wigan bout 3 years back. the youth system at wigan was no where near where it was, maurice lyndsay had let it go a bit. ian lenigan said he wanted to win the grand final in 5 years with lads who had come through the club. every detail was looked at and systems and scouts put in place in yorks cumbria lancs and the scouts also covered all games in differents codes at all ages. the system there now is second to none it can be done.

when bringing a youngster to wakefield they should be told that theres no guarentee that they will play sl and if they dont will leave our club a better player than when they arrived. every game and every session need to be taped and gone over. mistakes are made its learning but not over and over again. individual programs put in place for body size, weight and shape and finally lads should not be signed and just said to here you go do it work with them nurture them. talk to them, scream at them sometimes, you are after a reaction out of them saying right il show them.

to any young player or parent of a young player reading this most people in sport are in it for themselves so trust no one but yourself and go do it yourself and you wont go far wrong.

Great post Mopsey. Thanks for the insight

re 21s/dual reg.
I think a good solution would be to have combined area 21s playing in the lower league. i.e. 3 SL teams combine, say Leeds, Wakefield and Cas, each provide a minimum of 6/7 players each week and share the costs.
Play in the championship/C1 with promotion relegation between the 2, but with no promotion/play-off place into SL . 12 Northern based teams would provide 4 extra teams for the championships.
In this way they would be proper feeder teams and not undermine existing clubs.