I appreciate what you say Two Points, however since I am a non-pensioner could I ask a few things please?

- Firstly, when you got the discounted rate from the age of 60, did you not think it was unusual to get such a discount before the age of 65?

- As an early retired person, what other items/services that you pay for give you a pensioner discount before the age of 65?

- During the Glover era we all had access to "cheap" tickets. I think from year 1 to year 2, my east stand seated season ticket increased by maybe 30-50%, or something of that nature. I appreciate I am still employed but it was still a significant hike up.

As a general few observations to all:-

- do we have any context as to how many over 60 and under 65 year old season ticket holders we have lost? Is it maybe 2 dozen or a few hundred?

- didn't Carter say that the new season ticket prices resulted in lower ticket sales but a substantial increase in income from season ticket sales? (was it 40% increase?) The club has to survive by increasing revenue. Can we really be so critical of a strategy to be financially sustainable because a minority of supporters have benefited from an unusually early pensioner discount?

- when I was in the ticket shop on Sunday I noticed that staff were telling customers that a number of other clubs (she quoted a few but I remember specifically Leeds Rhinos being mentioned) only offer a pensioner discount from the age of 65 onwards. (Was Kath Hetherington influential in this decision?)

I appreciate there is a very vocal dissent on here to a favourable discounted price of the past now being removed.

I also have been affected by the rise in ticket prices. I used to buy 2 season tickets until this year when I only bought one. It was more affordable for us now and my wife doesn't come to every game.

However, overall Carter has indicated that pre-season we were financially better off.

Whilst some will say look at the attendances now, I would respond with look the results this season and comments by our prior coach. You can't say that a primary factor as to why attendances are down is because heavily discounted tickets have been removed.

Unfortunately, we need someone like a Koukash to survive, to underwrite the potential losses. The club need to find out why people aren't going and address it. The impression I get is that they are more interested in making it our duty to attend.

From reading Brian Smith's interview in Forty Twenty, however, if we can get through the season and hang onto him, it does seem that he may have a role in looking at the business structure of the club as a whole. He is more than just a rugby coach. His video thanking the fans might have been nonsense, or it might have reflected his true feelings, but he saw the need to make it.

For me, there are two musts: survive this year, and then hang onto Brian Smith, for more than the rugby stuff.

At the beginning of the season Carter says he'd rather have 4,000 paying full price than 8,000 with discounted tickets and freebees.
Assuming he knows where the break point is before making that statement, the crowd itself doesn't matter.

It may look poor to have 3,500 for a game but if the books look better on it than they did when the place was rocking in the Glover era then all's still good.
If assume we want above 4k to make it workable but that is a different target to 8,000-10,000 as some would think.

I'd like to know what that number is from Carter.

I would've thought that having more people in the ground could only be a good thing.

If the ST prices were reduced by say 10%, and that meant we sold 200 more season tickets (no math behind the numbers, just guessing). Would the revenue from STs not be roughly the same amount of money as what we got this year? (i.e. the extra 200 tickets cover for the loss of 10% discount). Plus you then have 200 extra people in the club shop to buy kits, and also 200 more people in the ground on match days to buy food/drinks and produce a better atmosphere which could attract more fans.

Wildshot - at the time that I took early retirement you could have your free bus pass at 60. This was swiped away shortly before I reached 60. You still get free prescriptions at 60 and there are other things. Quite a few companies offer reduced prices from the age of 60. I think it's called marketing.

I understand what you are saying about increased income but I was replying about poor/reduced attendances. Pop Tart hit the nail on the head though. Would you rather have 8000 paying ten quid or 4000 paying 20?

You don't double your attendances by halfing the ticket price though.

Mr Carter must have done the sums to work out the optimum prices.

I'm not sure how many people aged 60 to 64 have stopped coming because of the concession age change. I am equally unsure how many students have stopped coming because we don't have a student ST.

I am fairly confident in saying that some people across the demographic range, have stopped coming cos we are crap.

Just some random figures pucked from nowhere as I don't know the number or split of season tickets sold but if we assume we sold 2000 season tickets at their full prices let's see how the numbers pan out:

1200 Adults @ £250 = £300,000
300 Concessions @£170 = £51,000
300 13-16yr olds @£70 = £21,000
200 Under 12's @£50 = £10,000

Total = £382,000

If you reduced the Adult and concessions prices (I personally think the others are more than reasonable) to get the same income you would need to sell

1500 Adults @£200 = £300,000
425 concessions @£120 = £51,000
300 13-16yr olds @£70 = £21,000
200 Under 12's @£50 = £10,000

Total = £382,000

So we would need to sell 300 additional Adult tickets and 125 additional Concessions to generate the same Season ticket income but you have an extra 425 season ticket holders and therefore in the ground (hopefully) spnding money.
Seems simple and achievable. However, as ever nothing is quite that simple. Question is how many of those 425 extra season ticket holders would have walked up and paid on the day? My guess (based on people picking and choosing games etc) is maybe 60% so now you are giving up:
300 x £20 x 14 (games) x 60% (attendance) = £50,400
125 x £14 x 14 (games) x 60% (attendance) = £14,700
So now you need to sell a further additional 200 adult tickets and 120 concessions to make up the numbers.

So in total we now need to sell an additional 500 Adult tickets and 245 Concessions on top of what we would sell at this seasons prices. Is that as achievable??


As I said, this is all speculative, but you can see how it is not just as simple as reducing the prices, and how increasing the prices, even with the loss of number of sales that brings can dramatically affect the overall situation.


Michael Carter has a real tough job balancing these decisions with financing a squad capable of competing without spending money we don't have.

Just a bit of food for thought for all those who seem to think it is simple.

We used to have a couple of thousand fans occupying the Western Terrace along with visiting fans. Excellent atmosphere and the best standing views in the ground.

We are now told to stand behind the posts and are expected to tolerate the poor, obstructed view and put up with the proximity of our most childish fans whilst looking across to an area that at times has been kept virtually empty. Where have these fans gone - not onto the Northstand.

Never mind new further sales. The problem next year will be convincing the current ST holders to purchase again!

After the dross served up and the comments of our previous coach the general consensus with the group i go with is that they arent going to bother. When the time comes to renew i dare say a few will have a change of mind, but certainly not all.

Our group has already dwindled to five. Three of those will not be renewing next year, the other two are undecided.

I think the crowds have obviously suffered due to a number of factors this season:
Pricing
Performances!!!!!
Webster's statement/mentality
Apathy

There are reasons for fans to come back and we just have to hope the middle 8's provide that reason. At the moment (until middle 8s start) we effectively have nothing left to play for but pride as we can't change our position.

I've no doubt those who don't renew still post the same old dross on here.I get made redundant next week and yes ,a season to forget,but I can assure you that the wife,father inlaw and myself will be getting our tickets next year,so gather up all your teddies and dummies that's lying about,put em back in the cot and get to watch the Trin.

As a season ticket holder for many years and previously never missing a home game, this season I have been guilty of choosing to stay away. Webster's comments about the games not mattering massively influenced an apathy towards the club that i have never had before.
Then along came the shining light that is Brian Smith. After listening to his opening interview at the club that feeling of pride in my club was back. The last two home games have been like a breath of fresh air and I would urge any other stay away fans to get your backsides down to Belle Vue and support our new and inspirational coach.
I for one am so glad to be back supporting my team, coach & chairman that really do want to win every match and stay in Superleague. Bring on Cas!!!

This coming weekend's attendance will be interesting; what should be our largest of the season by a country mile. Will we break the 4500 barrier?