[quote="The Avenger":izpwqvdd]No doubting that there’s skill in Union but is it as transferable as some think? You’re obviously entitled to your opinion but I’ll take the view of someone whose coached both at the very top over yours thanks[/quote:izpwqvdd] It's a totally different game and although there is undoubtedly skill in union, I feel very few would successfully make the transition to league. It's changed like league has, and the players becomed honed to their particular game- the same applies vice versa, how many league players have tried union and looked completely lost. Up to RU professionalism ( official that is) the Union players seemed OK adapting to league - and I'm talking about backs now- you can probably count on one hand how many forwards made it! I remember Bryan West!

[quote="1315trinity":21fc23t8]It's a totally different game and although there is undoubtedly skill in union, I feel very few would successfully make the transition to league. It's changed like league has, and the players becomed honed to their particular game- the same applies vice versa, how many league players have tried union and looked completely lost. Up to RU professionalism ( official that is) the Union players seemed OK adapting to league - and I'm talking about backs now- you can probably count on one hand how many forwards made it! I remember Bryan West![/quote:21fc23t8] Which is exactly what I was saying, since open professionalism Union players have become fitter but they’ve also become more specialised with their skill set being peculiar to their role within a Union team. There are areas of commonality and that’s where they are behind their League counterparts. Union players simply don’t face the same level of relentless pressure and intensity and as a result their skills break down when put under the sort of pressure a top level League defence would impose.

[quote="1315trinity":2jcy197n]It's a totally different game and although there is undoubtedly skill in union, I feel very few would successfully make the transition to league. It's changed like league has, and the players becomed honed to their particular game- the same applies vice versa, how many league players have tried union and looked completely lost. Up to RU professionalism ( official that is) the Union players seemed OK adapting to league - and I'm talking about backs now- you can probably count on one hand how many forwards made it! I remember Bryan West![/quote:2jcy197n] Scott Quinnell and Paul Moriarty were the forwards who came to mind.

[quote="Shifty Cat":3s0fescs]Scott Quinnell and Paul Moriarty were the forwards who came to mind.[/quote:3s0fescs] counted about fifty from memory before my mind wandered off somewhere, including many from Trinity ... David Jeanes and Rob Valentine as examples

[quote="The Avenger":2mljhfid]Which is exactly what I was saying, since open professionalism Union players have become fitter but they’ve also become more specialised with their skill set being peculiar to their role within a Union team. There are areas of commonality and that’s where they are behind their League counterparts. Union players simply don’t face the same level of relentless pressure and intensity and as a result their skills break down when put under the sort of pressure a top level League defence would impose.[/quote:2mljhfid] You say that, but there is no recent example of Union player playing League to prove your point. Of course a player going either way has to learn the game, which Burgess proved. I've played both at a decent level and I've talked at length to a senior coach of both games (I assume it's the same one) A rugby union scrum half is always under pressure, can pass further than most and can kick. They still have to learn the game. You might even play them at hooker in our game if the are built like Duport. It isn't a case of not being skilled at all. You just have to fit the skill to the role. A winger or outside centre would be pretty easy to move across. A fullback is now harder because the league role has changed. Front row is almost an alien game in RU. But you'd play a number 8 at prop in league. Etc etc. Saying all that, some of the passing and catching skills in today's Ireland England game was schoolboy level!!

[quote="PopTart":333gqrb5] Saying all that, some of the passing and catching skills in today's Ireland England game was schoolboy level!![/quote:333gqrb5] Saw the result on the BBC website... So I took a quick look at the match report... I have to say I didn't recognise any of the players names on either side... But the report suggested it was a good game.

[quote="PopTart":hv46y0s9] It isn't a case of not being skilled at all. Saying all that, some of the passing and catching skills in today's Ireland England game was schoolboy level!![/quote:hv46y0s9] I never suggested they weren’t skilled at all, in fact I’ve stated a couple of times that they are skilled. I doubt it’ll be the same Coach, the guy I’m talking about was shocked by the gap between League and Union players in the common skills shared by the two codes.

[quote="Spookisback":2881mgau]Saw the result on the BBC website... So I took a quick look at the match report... I have to say I didn't recognise any of the players names on either side... But the report suggested it was a good game.[/quote:2881mgau] It was a good game, but it was made close for a long time because Ireland kept throwing dodgy passes when they were in good positions to score.

Not many have made it, no chance of rest periods in league, past players comments, also, in league they target you more, man on man to sap you, in short it's a differant game, to day I watched Ireland v England, both sides stood mainly flat with the ball, anyone coming near the man with the ball it was kicked, passing was slow ie no quick draw an man & pass, no consistant line breaks & very little anticipation in tackling on line speeds. However, rucking is very challenging !

[quote="Spookisback":33sl11sc]counted about fifty from memory before my mind wandered off somewhere, including many from Trinity ... David Jeanes and Rob Valentine as examples[/quote:33sl11sc] Haha yeah I started to eat my words as soon as I posted! Geoff Clarkson was another!

[quote="Spookisback":1xcoluts]counted about fifty from memory before my mind wandered off somewhere, including many from Trinity ... David Jeanes and Rob Valentine as examples[/quote:1xcoluts] Way before my time those mate and so many others. I was just thinking of the last of the great RU forwards to make the move and then back over to RU when they went Professional.

Dai Young, Paul Moriarty, Rowland Phillips, Mark Jones, Roy Mathias, Brad Thorn, Terry Price, SBW, Glyn Shaw, Paul Ringer, Tommy David

The days of Union players not being fit enough and not being able to tackle are long gone. Not everyone can move across to the same status they held in the other code but they can play. Because the objectives of the games are the same it looks easy, but the individual objectives of the individual players are worlds apart the further down the numbers you get. Wing and inside centre are good fits for rugby league. Scrum half depending on the player. Back row but 8, 6 and 7 in that order because of the jobs they do. Second row. Unlikely. Front row. Even less likely and if they do, not in the same position. Dai Young was unique. Top of his game in Union and became a decent prop....but ecen he was not at the same level

[quote="PopTart":22rezntn]The days of Union players not being fit enough and not being able to tackle are long gone. Not everyone can move across to the same status they held in the other code but they can play. Because the objectives of the games are the same it looks easy, but the individual objectives of the individual players are worlds apart the further down the numbers you get. Wing and inside centre are good fits for rugby league. Scrum half depending on the player. Back row but 8, 6 and 7 in that order because of the jobs they do. Second row. Unlikely. Front row. Even less likely and if they do, not in the same position. Dai Young was unique. Top of his game in Union and became a decent prop....but ecen he was not at the same level[/quote:22rezntn] Brad Thorn and Sonny Bill are the only forwards to my knowledge who have been dominant in both codes in recent times. Looking forward to seeing how Nawaqanitawase goes for the roosters on the edge.

[quote="Pat Bateman":3cp69e0e]Brad Thorn and Sonny Bill are the only forwards to my knowledge who have been dominant in both codes in recent times. Looking forward to seeing how [color=#FF0000:3cp69e0e]Nawaqanitawase[/color:3cp69e0e] goes for the roosters on the edge.[/quote:3cp69e0e] What a terffic score that is in Scrabble.....

[quote="Pat Bateman":d11popl5]Brad Thorn and Sonny Bill are the only forwards to my knowledge who have been dominant in both codes in recent times. Looking forward to seeing how Nawaqanitawase goes for the roosters on the edge.[/quote:d11popl5] Sonny Bill is a good example. You'd think he'd be a flanker but he was at his best at centre. Brad Thorn was just a monster athlete and very adaptable. Great player in both.

[quote="BarnsleyGull":3nmxagq7]What a terffic score that is in Scrabble..... [/quote:3nmxagq7] You would need a 5XL shirt to get that name on the back

[quote="PopTart":zt8m589r]Sonny Bill is a good example. You'd think he'd be a flanker but he was at his best at centre. Brad Thorn was just a monster athlete and very adaptable. Great player in both.[/quote:zt8m589r] What was your opinion on Sam Burgess at the RUWC.

[quote="Pat Bateman":3hryx9gr]What was your opinion on Sam Burgess at the RUWC.[/quote:3hryx9gr] He could easily have been great but they just didn't use him properly. I actually went to Gloucester to see him play after he'd just started playing. He got the ball about 3 times at centre in the game but looked destructive when he got it. When he played for England it was similar. They didn't like it because he wasn't scoring at will but they didn't give him a run from deep. When they took him off defense fell apart and they lost. With time he'd have been world class but I'm glad he came back to be honest.

[quote="Pat Bateman":2x6dv95a]What was your opinion on Sam Burgess at the RUWC.[/quote:2x6dv95a] I think Sam was made the scapegoat for England's catastrophic failure at the 2015 World Cup . Whilst I accept he was fast tracked by the coach Stuart Lancaster in to the England world cup squad the truth was the England camp wasn't together as a group and couldn't handle the pressure of a home world cup . Sam wasn't anything like as bad as he was made out to be in that tournament and in my opinion Union being what it is , it was easy to blame the Rugby League lad from Heckmondwike for the complete failure of that England team .

[quote="PopTart":33cwvgw9] Dai Young was unique. Top of his game in Union and became a decent prop....but ecen he was not at the same level[/quote:33cwvgw9] Dai Young and Simon Irvine (England RU junior international) both made their Leeds RLFC debuts away at Halifax in the "A team" on a cold wednesday evening. I actually went to the game that night and it was evident that Dai Young didn't have a clue whatsoever about what his role would entail in the RL game

[quote="BarnsleyTrinity":2xkjfmuf]I think Sam was made the scapegoat for England's catastrophic failure at the 2015 World Cup . Whilst I accept he was fast tracked by the coach Stuart Lancaster in to the England world cup squad the truth was the England camp wasn't together as a group and couldn't handle the pressure of a home world cup . Sam wasn't anything like as bad as he was made out to be in that tournament and in my opinion Union being what it is , it was easy to blame the Rugby League lad from Heckmondwike for the complete failure of that England team .[/quote:2xkjfmuf] He was absolutely used as a scapegoat and done so totally against the facts but the Rugby Union media fell all over themselves at the opportunity to rubbish a Northern lad from Rugby League. In their game against Wales, Burgess absolutely dominated Wales and Lions centre Jamie Robert’s defensively giving him fits while running all over him when in possession. England were ahead on the scoreboard when Burgess was substituted but after he was gone Robert’s suddenly came alive and made the break from which Wales scored and won the game. It was ridiculous to blame Burgess!

[quote="BarnsleyTrinity":1kpqj0qm]I think Sam was made the scapegoat for England's catastrophic failure at the 2015 World Cup . Whilst I accept he was fast tracked by the coach Stuart Lancaster in to the England world cup squad the truth was the England camp wasn't together as a group and couldn't handle the pressure of a home world cup . Sam wasn't anything like as bad as he was made out to be in that tournament and in my opinion Union being what it is , it was easy to blame the Rugby League lad from Heckmondwike for the complete failure of that England team .[/quote:1kpqj0qm] My old PE teacher at Kettlethorpe high was Lancaster. It was bizarre seeing him on the big stage

[quote="The Avenger":1vt4z1qb]He was absolutely used as a scapegoat and done so totally against the facts but the Rugby Union media fell all over themselves at the opportunity to rubbish a Northern lad from Rugby League. In their game against Wales, Burgess absolutely dominated Wales and Lions centre Jamie Robert’s defensively giving him fits while running all over him when in possession. England were ahead on the scoreboard when Burgess was substituted but after he was gone Robert’s suddenly came alive and made the break from which Wales scored and won the game. It was ridiculous to blame Burgess![/quote:1vt4z1qb] Completely agree. I remember after what had been said in the lead up, then how easily Sam handled Roberts, it being quite funny. For all his supposed lack of experience and better players that he'd jumped over, he just shut him down. Not only that, Roberts was an integral part in getting Wales moving forward on the front foot, with his storming centre runs, that enabled quick recycles and opened up the rest of the field, he was key to how Wales was successful in that period. Similar to how Eddie Jones used Manu Tuilagii when he came back after that world Cup, during their win streak and success he had. Ateotd as you say, England were 25-18 up when Sam was taken off, in the one World Cup game he did start. Then his replacement George Ford, Mike Ford's kid, who's a Fly Half predominantly, just didn't have the same impact and defensive qualities and it led to Wales taking the lead and their win in the last 10 minutes. Also Sam was going to be on the bench for that game before Jonathan Joseph got an injury, so Sam had to start and after this game Joseph partnered Barrett in the centres to that embarrassing defeat against Australia that gets lost because it doesn't fit agendas. Rightly Lancaster should and was torn to shreds in the media but Sam shouldn't have been a part of it, not in the way the media went about blaming the loss on Sam anyway, it should have been why did they sub him when there was absolutely no need to. It fell apart because they stupidly took him off and the replacement just got bullied by Roberts as he had done in previous games. The talk about him being fast tracked and put in ahead of more experienced players, just held no weight at all because, firstly he started one game and when one of those more experienced players came on for him, he was crap and got exposed just as they both did against Australia and other games. It was the team and the coaching that was wrong, as Sam said himself it was full of ego's, politics and snakes. He was there 10 months and Burgess played 21 games in the back-row for Bath, including the 2015 Premiership final, while England had eyes on him playing 12. How's that joined up thinking at all, if they had his best interests they both should have been working off the same sheet from the start and had him playing 12 at Bath. Sam has since said this about Ford and his thought on him, [quote:1vt4z1qb]“The politics went through the roof, Burgess said. “Mike Ford wanted the England coaching job. He added: “I think probably the biggest outcome everyone wanted was, Mike Ford wanted the England coaching job. So his job was to try and sabotage Lancaster and his decision-making and his coaching methods. “I think obviously with George being his son in camp, it kind of infiltrated a little bit into the team camp. That’s just my take on it, whether that’s the reality of it or not, but that’s my reality.” “I just felt that people behind the scenes were playing a deeper game,” explained Burgess. “With George, Mike kind of infiltrated the camp – that is my take on it. “After me starting against Wales, my relationship with George completely changed, he wouldn’t talk to me, he was a bit sulky. “Knowing what I know now, I see the politics. George came on with 10 minutes to go to keep Mike and George happy. We didn’t need him on, we had the team to finish the game.”[/quote:1vt4z1qb] Jonathan Davies and Paul Grayson, wrote an article on planet rugby about it and they agreed and were bang on. [url:1vt4z1qb]https://www.planetrugby.com/news/if-sam-stays-on-england-win-ex-international-duo-slam-burgess-treatment-in-rugby-union-calling-world-cup-decision-madness[/url:1vt4z1qb]

It was really bad but the only lovers were Rugby Union. Sam got a shed load of money and he came back to league to continue as player and coach.