have to disagree- a good hooker will affect how a team will play more than any other player. not saying ellis was better than aiton overall - but he was a better dummy half , he didn`t turn the ball over 3/4 times a match with a fumble or forward pass. i don`t want to be seen as someone who wants to bag agar at every opportunity - but i maintain that to interfere with the teams structure for the hkr game was CRIMINAL. as for the bulls points deduction - i never mentioned getting in the 8 , just the fact we played terrific rugby and won 7 on bounce. that was after winning 7 of the previous 20 . again for the agar apologists , with players he was FORCED to play

I used to wrong word for the hooker but it won't change the team completely, for me the forwards affect how a team play and then your pivots play on that. Yes I agree HKR was criminal and I was pretty cheesed off about it too. Agar wasn't forced to play Ellis he could of played Wildie instead.

I think that there is coaching, managing and club structure involved in this question but understand your thoughts. I think the club as a whole are responsible for young players. Training, environment, education, feel good factor and obviously opportunities. Agar has the largest say on a young player playing as he predominantly picks the team. Looking at our current players I would say If I was Wildie I would be disappointed. However I still feel Wildie has lots of improvement in him and nowhere near Mcshane yet! He needs to not be too disheartened. Coaches often say - Prove me wrong. So i would say Wildie prove Agar wrong. Go and rip it up in the Championship. I always thought Walshaw looked extremely unfit to begin with. However he has shown glimpses of someone who could make a good super league player. Again nowhere near Collis but hopefully he will rip it up in the Championship and also be knocking on Agars door. I liked Annakin in the run of games he had last year. He has been unfortunate that he got injured and his position is covered by one of the strongest areas we have at the club. Trout hasn't let himself down and his main position is up for opinion. I would say second row with the previous point applying. I haven't seen enough of Jowett or Crowther but I'm quietly excited by these.

The whole youth structure is something IMO we need to seriously think about for long term gains. Look at other models that are working well including recruitment, training development and conditioning of young players (which is different to adults) and other important variables. As the club are essentially running on low staff and have had other priorities to stabilise the club I am just grateful for that. However if they want to proceed to the next level and take the club forward this is one of the most important areas to improve. Like most things though it involves money to take forward any structure. MC, CB & KH would love a thriving youth structure. I know many fans question our closeness to Leeds but I would be picking the brains out of Leeds structure if it produced the players the have produced. I know its not that simple but you could do worse than look at their model.

Back to A good coach. Obviously making the right decisions and luck have the biggest influence. A couple of players Agar has picked i wouldn't have picked. However I think what if the players and structure I would have picked produced similar results or worse. What then? It's difficult. Motivation plays a big part in a coaches credentials for me too. Sometimes you need a good rollicking to get you pumping. Maybe MC could do to visit the changing rooms after some he gives out at football. I could list many traits of a good coach but he also needs a good team around him. Is the conditioning good enough? Do the exact messages get passed to the players he passes down? Do the rehab team get the players back in good time? Do the other coaching staff pull their weight? Do the players pull their weight and listen to instructions?

I can't specially say what good or bad traits Agar has as a coach as im not on the training field, changing rooms or gantry when hes passing messages down. How long do you give coaches to succeed is the golden question. I bet Manchester United are glad they decided not to sack Alex Ferguson when he was one game away from the sack all them years ago.

Agar picks a team that suits his blinkered views. He keeps his fingers crossed and hopes that it wins. If it loses he'll give it another shot next week/month/season etc. etc. as long as he can keep in his job.

I might be wrong in this but didn't agar pick briscoe/lynn combo against fev and they scored mostly down there side. Then picked same two against wigan, if true THAT, is not the actions of a good coach.Also if we were so held back by the late arrival of our overseas players why didn't he prepare or "experiment" with the players we had.Because i for one thought with work permit/visa problems they may never arrive and not to prepare what we had to cover etc was unprofessonal in such an important season for the club.

Of course he prepared. He played Wildie at scrum half. That was our option until Godinet came. Why is that even an issue.

I think it is time to move on because I don't think there are many more aspects of the club that could be laid at the door of our coach. I liked Ellis but if he was better than Aiton then he would be playing in super league not the championship.
I doubt a coach would have much input with regards the youth development at the club, we have others for that who I expect will report to him regarding how individuals are progressing. His responsibility would be the first team squad.
We all have our players who we don't like, I said before I never understood how the likes of Henderson, Golding and on his performances with us Ferres got into the team.

Only one of those is a fact, and not one that proves any particular point; Ellis did *not* singlehandedly win those games - he played his part.

Here's another fact - despite RA's ineptitude at failing to spot the talent of such a pivotal player, that same player now plies his trade on a part-time basis at Featherstone; two off-seasons have passed, and not one of the big-spending, talent-spotting clubs have picked him up. Go figure.

Criticise away - but don't pin your argument on Andy Ellis; it's just daft.

We'll find out how good Agar is as a coach at the end of the season. He will have his work cut out keeping this team up when Bradford get some of their points back and sign up two or three more players. He will live and die by his decisions and so will the club.

You are right we will and just remind me who were the favourites for the drop pre season, remind me the mire we were in last summer remind me how quick we have had to put a team together on a reduced budget.

Remind me at the end of the season if we stay up or go down. Instead of people bagging all and sundries we should be behind the team win or lose if we are 12th or above this season that will be a remarkable achievement in 12 months of the club.
Sometimes we will get paggered it's a fact live with it, if some of our players were good enough for 'better' teams then they would have been snapped up.

I agree about Ellis, he did not do it by himself, Big Frankie helped him.

Nobody can dispute what you are saying and pre season, pretty much everyone said that they would be very happy with finishing 12th this season and building from there.
However, on the back of comfortable wins against London and Catalan and an excellent 60 minutes against Saints, it was reasonable to expect a performance (if not victory) against a struggling KR team.
Instead, we had some strange selections and a totally inept performance and quite rightly, the fans that pay their hard earned wages at the turnstiles question the merit of some of the players and the guy who picked the team.

We didn't just get beaten last week, we got smashed and this was against a team that, although they have played some of the better teams in the comp, had only managed 1 win all season (against a struggling Bradford).
Our efforts in this game were simply not good enough, regardless of the off season, pre-season or strength of the squad and the supporters deserve better !

Rant over.

But people on here keep saying that this squad is better than last years so surely those pre-season predictions count for nothing now as the expectations are now higher than getting thumped by an average side like Hull KR. Unless the team isn't actually that good after all then yes fair enough.

You'd be wrong to doubt that because that's exactly what happens, the Head Coach will set out what he wants from the Youth Development at his club, he will have a major input on who the coaches are especially at U19 level (do you honestly think we appointed Stuart Dickinson without consulting Richard Agar) and he'll set out his philosophy and convey it to the Head of Youth Development. The head Coach's priorities for the clubs future will also have a bearing on the level of resource available to the youth set up, a selfish coach will drag every last penny and every resource into 1st team matters leaving the youth set up to starve and wither. One of the reasons Drury left was that Agars philosophy wasn't the same as his, they didn't agree and Drury wasn't happy that he couldn't do his own thing and decided to leave.

It maybe a better squad time will tell but as a team they are still not fully settled I am pretty sure next season if we stay up our overseas players will be far better they take time to settle but they are here to play, life is full of ups and downs and team sport is no different I don't think we are that good yet but the signs are there oh and the average Hull K R side that has only lost to the top teams this season and spend to the full cap I think a re-evaluation is needed