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| [code[/code Quote MatthewTrin="MatthewTrin"Do you know the exact number of conferences or simulations they've officially ran in the last 20 years regarding a pandemic? I don't know so I'd like someone to share it.'"
Looking through google it appears a major annual event has been held once over the last few years. | | |
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| Quote MatthewTrin="MatthewTrin"Do you know the exact number of conferences or simulations they've officially ran in the last 20 years regarding a pandemic? I don't know so I'd like someone to share it.'"
I'm sure there are 100's.
However the one that I referred to was the 21st that the particular organisation had run.
The very fact that they are so frequent, would seem to dispel the "hope" that the 2019 conference that yourself and Miro have been pinning so much kudos towards, was indeed, just another coincidence.
Mind you, coincidence and possibilities are very strong themes on this thread.
Have you researched Sweden yet ? | | | |
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Quote Miro="Miro"Unfortunately this is a frequently used underhand tactic by Coco. Guilty by association.'"
If all else fails they just resort to the Ad Hominem Fallacy.
Looks like those stories on social media regarding disgruntled families complaining about C19 being added to the death certificates are finally being reported by the mainstream media
The father of a teenager reported to be the youngest person to die with Covid-19 in NI has said he doesn't want him to be remembered as a statistic.
[i
"These headlines are very hurting to us, that he has become a statistic of Covid-19," he said. "I don't want him to be remembered as a statistic, as the youngest person to have died of Covid. As far as we are concerned he died of heart failure. He added: "We just have to get our point across. Aaron at the time of his death was Covid negative, we were told he had heart failure, that they couldn't resuscitate him."
Earlier this year, Aaron was diagnosed with Cushing's Syndrome, a condition that causes the body to produce too much of the hormone cortisol.
He was due to undergo surgery in Belfast's Royal Victoria Hospital and had been sent for a routine coronavirus test around a month ago, which was positive.
He showed no symptoms and later tested negative, his father said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern- ... t-54731262[/i
I also came across this little beauty from the BBC the other day
[i"The number of people that die after catching the virus, known as the infection fatality rate, is about 0.5%."[/i
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54570373
I had to read that line twice, hang on they now claim the Infection fatality is 0.5%!
What happened to the 5% fatality rate they kept banging on about back in March. LMFAO
I'm sure they are sneakily dropping their estimate every single month on their news articles without announcing it on their news station. They're not far off my prediction of 0.2% now. |
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Quote Miro="Miro"Unfortunately this is a frequently used underhand tactic by Coco. Guilty by association.'"
If all else fails they just resort to the Ad Hominem Fallacy.
Looks like those stories on social media regarding disgruntled families complaining about C19 being added to the death certificates are finally being reported by the mainstream media
The father of a teenager reported to be the youngest person to die with Covid-19 in NI has said he doesn't want him to be remembered as a statistic.
[i
"These headlines are very hurting to us, that he has become a statistic of Covid-19," he said. "I don't want him to be remembered as a statistic, as the youngest person to have died of Covid. As far as we are concerned he died of heart failure. He added: "We just have to get our point across. Aaron at the time of his death was Covid negative, we were told he had heart failure, that they couldn't resuscitate him."
Earlier this year, Aaron was diagnosed with Cushing's Syndrome, a condition that causes the body to produce too much of the hormone cortisol.
He was due to undergo surgery in Belfast's Royal Victoria Hospital and had been sent for a routine coronavirus test around a month ago, which was positive.
He showed no symptoms and later tested negative, his father said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern- ... t-54731262[/i
I also came across this little beauty from the BBC the other day
[i"The number of people that die after catching the virus, known as the infection fatality rate, is about 0.5%."[/i
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54570373
I had to read that line twice, hang on they now claim the Infection fatality is 0.5%!
What happened to the 5% fatality rate they kept banging on about back in March. LMFAO
I'm sure they are sneakily dropping their estimate every single month on their news articles without announcing it on their news station. They're not far off my prediction of 0.2% now. | |
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| Quote Billy Butcher="Billy Butcher"Well somebody’s convinced him and this forum isn’t exactly awash with brain cells.'"
You are welcome to raise your issue with site Admin.
In my view this is a discussion about current affairs. Nothing goes against AUP apart from the last few post trying to stop people having an opinion. | | |
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Quote wrencat1873="wrencat1873"I'm sure there are 100's.
However the one that I referred to was the 21st that the particular organisation had run.
The very fact that they are so frequent, would seem to dispel the "hope" that the 2019 conference that yourself and Miro have been pinning so much kudos towards, was indeed, just another coincidence.
Mind you, coincidence and possibilities are very strong themes on this thread.
Have you researched Sweden yet ?'"
Frequency could also indicate it's been on the cards for quite some time. It ensures collaboration and familiarity between stakeholders so everyone is buying into the same 'group think' strategies.
Another John Hopkins special...
https://www.forhealthsecurity.org ... _exercise/
Come to think of it after simulating all these scenarios you'd think by now they would have worked out whether face masks worked or not before the start of this year.
I'll get back to you on Sweden tomorrow, I'm hoping to report on the current total of all cause mortality compared to previous years. |
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Quote wrencat1873="wrencat1873"I'm sure there are 100's.
However the one that I referred to was the 21st that the particular organisation had run.
The very fact that they are so frequent, would seem to dispel the "hope" that the 2019 conference that yourself and Miro have been pinning so much kudos towards, was indeed, just another coincidence.
Mind you, coincidence and possibilities are very strong themes on this thread.
Have you researched Sweden yet ?'"
Frequency could also indicate it's been on the cards for quite some time. It ensures collaboration and familiarity between stakeholders so everyone is buying into the same 'group think' strategies.
Another John Hopkins special...
https://www.forhealthsecurity.org ... _exercise/
Come to think of it after simulating all these scenarios you'd think by now they would have worked out whether face masks worked or not before the start of this year.
I'll get back to you on Sweden tomorrow, I'm hoping to report on the current total of all cause mortality compared to previous years. | |
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Quote MatthewTrin="MatthewTrin"Frequency could also indicate it's been on the cards for quite some time. It ensures collaboration and familiarity between stakeholders so everyone is buying into the same 'group think' strategies.
Another John Hopkins special...
https://www.forhealthsecurity.org ... _exercise/
Come to think of it after simulating all these scenarios you'd think by now they would have worked out whether face masks worked or not before the start of this year.
I'll get back to you on Sweden tomorrow, I'm hoping to report on the current total of all cause mortality compared to previous years.'"
You seem to be on a different planet to the one that I recognise.
" It ensures collaboration and familiarity between stakeholders so everyone is buying into the same 'group think' strategies."
Hell, I was merely pointing out that "conferences" discussing the possibility of a pandemic, have been taking place for years, which indicates that many, many people feel the need to make plans to deal with an outbreak and you come up with some kind of "hot house" BS
Sorry pal but, you are swimming in a different pond to me.
Where is your own opinion, instead of regurgitating something that you have read in a different forum.? |
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Quote MatthewTrin="MatthewTrin"Frequency could also indicate it's been on the cards for quite some time. It ensures collaboration and familiarity between stakeholders so everyone is buying into the same 'group think' strategies.
Another John Hopkins special...
https://www.forhealthsecurity.org ... _exercise/
Come to think of it after simulating all these scenarios you'd think by now they would have worked out whether face masks worked or not before the start of this year.
I'll get back to you on Sweden tomorrow, I'm hoping to report on the current total of all cause mortality compared to previous years.'"
You seem to be on a different planet to the one that I recognise.
" It ensures collaboration and familiarity between stakeholders so everyone is buying into the same 'group think' strategies."
Hell, I was merely pointing out that "conferences" discussing the possibility of a pandemic, have been taking place for years, which indicates that many, many people feel the need to make plans to deal with an outbreak and you come up with some kind of "hot house" BS
Sorry pal but, you are swimming in a different pond to me.
Where is your own opinion, instead of regurgitating something that you have read in a different forum.? | |
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| Quote wrencat1873="wrencat1873"You've trashed your own argument.
For most of the past 100 pages, you have been telling the readers that the conference last year showed that the current pandemic was planned - WRONG
The conference was just the latest get together to discuss what MAY happen in the result of a world pandemic.
You are well aware that these events DO come around periodically and it's absolutely right that there is discussion and planning around what action to take.
Hell, it even sounds like a good idea.
A bit like building a hurricane or earthquake shelter if you live in parts of the world where you may be affected by such events..
Shall I mark this response up as a "put down" as you like to suggest that every reply of your own is a "winner"
A desperate person can find a link in absolutely everything. There are fortune tellers making a mint out of talking crap but, who manage to convince their customers that they should listen and some actually do.
How do you feel about the current increase in cases (and deaths) coincidence, fake news, a result of increased testing or perhaps the virus is spreading. You know, viruses do just that.'"
How have I trashed my own argument? I asked what knowledge do you have and all you do is state =#BF0000 “The conference was just the latest get together to discuss what MAY happen.”
I presume then that you are just taking their word for it because hey! These people do not lie do they? I mean, Corporations and world leaders and the like never lie, squeaky clean the lot of them. Never been known to lie and cheat. Lets face it, they are hardly likely to say it WILL happen. Bearing in mind also that many of the delegates are possibly as much in the dark as you.
So we come back to the fact that your view of my point of view is no more substantial than my view of yours.
I am disappointed wrencat, I though you would unlock this whole charade for us and finally put us in our place but no, you just say what you think has happened or simply take the word of that set of unspeakables.
Just one more thing. Have you a link to any of the other events you speak of. Have they been televised, have a website, youtubed as this one has etc. and given as much publicity (pre-covid) by the authors as Event 201. Or is this the only one and if so, why only this one I wonder.
How do I feel about the current deaths and increase in cases? I don't know what to think to be honest because the figures in the past have been massaged, as we all now know. Incidently something myself and MatthewTrin spoke of long before that fact was officially revealed.)
How can I trust the same liars now.
Just seen the post from MatthewTrin, fatality rate from covid .5% hmmm!
May I throw a question back at you and ask again, how many suicides, delayed cancer ops, livelihoods destroyed, increase in mental illness are you prepared to accept before you admit all these ridiculous measures are completely dis-proportionate | | |
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Quote MatthewTrin="MatthewTrin"Having previously made an incorrect statement about Swedish schools you follow it with some type of dig against a website and US news anchor that I have no knowledge about.
I actuallly took the link from google after hearing about the publication on YouTube, I must have copied it wrong. Still doesn't change the conclusion of the paper regarding full lockdowns.
Good luck with your faith in Covidianity.'"
I didn't say you got the quote via that specific website, I only suggested it was the 'type' of website you got it from. It is cherry-picked and out of context for the paper.
Google is a search engine, where did you actually get the (selective) quote from? You were prompted to the quote by a YouTube channel, what channel?
Quote MatthewTrin="MatthewTrin"Just a couple of points to end this game of online tennis to bed, here's a conclusion in a paper on the Lancet
[i
These findings suggest that more restrictive public health practices may indeed be associated with less transmission and better outcomes. However,[i=#FF0000 in our analysis[/i, full lockdowns and wide-spread COVID-19 testing were [unot [/uassociated with reductions in the number of critical cases or overall mortality.[/i
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ecli ... 89-5370(20)30208-X/fulltext
=#FF0000Also for your information secondary schools in Sweden remained open up until the age of 16.
I look forward to viewing the overall mortality in Sweden at the end of the year compared to the last five years to see if they got it right.'"
Some other quotes from the actual paper:
Quote MatthewTrinMortality rates were also higher in those counties with an older population upon univariate analysis, but age as a factor was not retained in multivariable analysis (Fig. 2).[i Lastly, government actions such as border closures, full lockdowns, and a high rate of COVID-19 testing were not associated with =#FF0000[u[size=150statistically significant[/size[/u reductions in the number of critical cases or overall mortality[/i.'"
Quote MatthewTrinThere were a series of predictors with significant associations with the outcome variables that require careful interpretation. An increased scale of national testing was not associated with the number of critical cases, or deaths per million. The government policy of full lockdowns (vs. partial or curfews only) was strongly associated with recovery rates (RR=2.47; 95%CI: 1.085.64). Similarly, the number of days to any border closure was associated with the number of cases per million (RR=1.04; 95%CI: 1.011.08). This suggests that full lockdowns and early border closures may lessen the peak of transmission, and thus prevent health system overcapacity, which would facilitate increased recovery rates.'"
Quote MatthewTrinIn the case of full lockdowns, such a government policy may only be effective in those countries where it can be easily implemented and enforced. For example, the United States has had challenges enforcing lockdowns, with citizens in several states publicly protesting public health measures to limit viral transmission, and encouraging open revolt [40.'"
This is a scientific paper published in a very prestigious journal. The process of getting something published in there is very long and thorough. There cannot be any errors and all claims must be supported by the evidence provided in the study. Quite often, things you hope to prove do not meet the accepted minimum probability (95% confidence intervals or p=0.05) following statistical analysis. This is most often because of insufficient data which leaves the findings not 'statistically significant'.
The main thrust of the paper relates to border closures / travel restrictions and their strengths and limitations.
The issues for analysis of their data appears to be a problem with overdispersion:
Quote MatthewTrin2.2. Statistical analysis
The unit of analysis was each individual country, and baseline information on each nation was presented descriptively as medians, means and proportions, with 95% confidence intervals (95%CI). 95%CIs were also presented for medians, which represent the 2.5% and 97.5% percentiles. Event rates as descriptive measures were calculated by dividing the number of COVID-19 related events by the total number of reported cases. The outcome variables of interest were the total number of cases, recovered cases, critical cases, and overall mortality, all expressed per
million population (as ofMay 01, 2020). Poisson regression modeling (PRM) is typically used to evaluate count data. However, overdispersion, which occurs when the conditional variance exceeds the conditional mean, must be
assessed. Negative binomial regression modeling (NBRM) can be used for overdispersed count data. If the dependent variable is over-dispersed, the confidence intervals for the coefficients of NBRM are likely to be narrower
relative to those generated from PRM. In the current analysis, each model was assessed for overdispersion using the Likelihood ratio test, which compares the Log likelihood generated from a Poisson and Negative binomial regression model. The difference in 2 x (Ln LNBRM Ln LPRM) is equal to a chi square with one degree of freedom. A statistically significant difference is consistent with the presence of overdispersion.
[uAn initial assessment of the data indicated considerable over-dispersion, precluding the use of Poisson regression for count data.[/u Therefore, a series ofmain effects multivariable negative binomial regression models were built to identify the factors significantly associated with COVID-19 mortality as well as the other health outcomes (a total of 4 models). The main exposure variable for each model, which is amount of time an observation was at risk, was the duration of virus exposure in days, from the first reported case in the reference country until May 01, 2020. Given the limited sample size (n = 50 countries), which increases the risk of overfitting in regression analysis, the potential predictors (independent variables) for model inclusion were first identified by a univariable screening process with a pre-set p = 0.25. This is a recommended approach for removing weak predictors so that a more manageable
set of predictor variables can be utilized with multivariable techniques [27. The Likelihood ratio test was then used in a backwards elimination process (p < 0.05 to retain) to select the final set of independent variables for retention in the COVID-19 outcome models. Special data handling methods were not be employed for dealing with missing data for the predictor or outcome variables. All outcomes of the regression analysis were reported as rate ratios (RR), where a value less than one suggests a decreased likelihood and a value of greater than one an increased likelihood of the event under investigation. Model goodness of fit and evaluation of outliers were assessed by the Akaike information criterion (AIC), the Bayesian information criterion (BIC) and McFadden’s pseudo R-squared statistic. Individual models were assessed with and without potential outliers to evaluate their impact on the results. All of the statistical analyses were performed using Stata, release 16.0 (Stata Corp., College Station, Texas, USA).'"
As an example, via my work, we did some analysis of the local weather patterns of the last 20 years' data from the local airport to get an insight into potential climate change impacts for local small-holder farmers. When this was analysed by a university our findings were seen as not statistically significant. Because climate changes are very slow and weather data is extremely variable, we would have needed 30 years' data, but the airport and weather station had only been built 20 years ago. Just because our data and findings / hypotheses could not be used for scientific purposes does not mean they weren't true.
I don't really like to cover to topics in one post, but for the sake of efficiency:
Sweden. The point I was making about Sweden is that they had measures in place and what you may define as a 'lockdown' is on a sliding scale. I didn't know what the structure of the Swedish education system was and assumed elementary/secondary schools were the same as elsewhere. Apparently, they refer to secondary schools as 16-19. However, the schools that were 'open' were not exactly business as usual.
https://www.tes.com/news/have-swedish-s ... ied-normal
A bit like the UK really?
The substantive point was that it's still a false dichotomy to compare countries with or without lockdown. I'm sure some people in France feel that the UK never had a lockdown. Did you frequently get challenged by police to produce documentation for proof of why you were outside the house?
Local conditions and prevalence of the virus dictate different actions. |
|
Quote MatthewTrin="MatthewTrin"Having previously made an incorrect statement about Swedish schools you follow it with some type of dig against a website and US news anchor that I have no knowledge about.
I actuallly took the link from google after hearing about the publication on YouTube, I must have copied it wrong. Still doesn't change the conclusion of the paper regarding full lockdowns.
Good luck with your faith in Covidianity.'"
I didn't say you got the quote via that specific website, I only suggested it was the 'type' of website you got it from. It is cherry-picked and out of context for the paper.
Google is a search engine, where did you actually get the (selective) quote from? You were prompted to the quote by a YouTube channel, what channel?
Quote MatthewTrin="MatthewTrin"Just a couple of points to end this game of online tennis to bed, here's a conclusion in a paper on the Lancet
[i
These findings suggest that more restrictive public health practices may indeed be associated with less transmission and better outcomes. However,[i=#FF0000 in our analysis[/i, full lockdowns and wide-spread COVID-19 testing were [unot [/uassociated with reductions in the number of critical cases or overall mortality.[/i
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ecli ... 89-5370(20)30208-X/fulltext
=#FF0000Also for your information secondary schools in Sweden remained open up until the age of 16.
I look forward to viewing the overall mortality in Sweden at the end of the year compared to the last five years to see if they got it right.'"
Some other quotes from the actual paper:
Quote MatthewTrinMortality rates were also higher in those counties with an older population upon univariate analysis, but age as a factor was not retained in multivariable analysis (Fig. 2).[i Lastly, government actions such as border closures, full lockdowns, and a high rate of COVID-19 testing were not associated with =#FF0000[u[size=150statistically significant[/size[/u reductions in the number of critical cases or overall mortality[/i.'"
Quote MatthewTrinThere were a series of predictors with significant associations with the outcome variables that require careful interpretation. An increased scale of national testing was not associated with the number of critical cases, or deaths per million. The government policy of full lockdowns (vs. partial or curfews only) was strongly associated with recovery rates (RR=2.47; 95%CI: 1.085.64). Similarly, the number of days to any border closure was associated with the number of cases per million (RR=1.04; 95%CI: 1.011.08). This suggests that full lockdowns and early border closures may lessen the peak of transmission, and thus prevent health system overcapacity, which would facilitate increased recovery rates.'"
Quote MatthewTrinIn the case of full lockdowns, such a government policy may only be effective in those countries where it can be easily implemented and enforced. For example, the United States has had challenges enforcing lockdowns, with citizens in several states publicly protesting public health measures to limit viral transmission, and encouraging open revolt [40.'"
This is a scientific paper published in a very prestigious journal. The process of getting something published in there is very long and thorough. There cannot be any errors and all claims must be supported by the evidence provided in the study. Quite often, things you hope to prove do not meet the accepted minimum probability (95% confidence intervals or p=0.05) following statistical analysis. This is most often because of insufficient data which leaves the findings not 'statistically significant'.
The main thrust of the paper relates to border closures / travel restrictions and their strengths and limitations.
The issues for analysis of their data appears to be a problem with overdispersion:
Quote MatthewTrin2.2. Statistical analysis
The unit of analysis was each individual country, and baseline information on each nation was presented descriptively as medians, means and proportions, with 95% confidence intervals (95%CI). 95%CIs were also presented for medians, which represent the 2.5% and 97.5% percentiles. Event rates as descriptive measures were calculated by dividing the number of COVID-19 related events by the total number of reported cases. The outcome variables of interest were the total number of cases, recovered cases, critical cases, and overall mortality, all expressed per
million population (as ofMay 01, 2020). Poisson regression modeling (PRM) is typically used to evaluate count data. However, overdispersion, which occurs when the conditional variance exceeds the conditional mean, must be
assessed. Negative binomial regression modeling (NBRM) can be used for overdispersed count data. If the dependent variable is over-dispersed, the confidence intervals for the coefficients of NBRM are likely to be narrower
relative to those generated from PRM. In the current analysis, each model was assessed for overdispersion using the Likelihood ratio test, which compares the Log likelihood generated from a Poisson and Negative binomial regression model. The difference in 2 x (Ln LNBRM Ln LPRM) is equal to a chi square with one degree of freedom. A statistically significant difference is consistent with the presence of overdispersion.
[uAn initial assessment of the data indicated considerable over-dispersion, precluding the use of Poisson regression for count data.[/u Therefore, a series ofmain effects multivariable negative binomial regression models were built to identify the factors significantly associated with COVID-19 mortality as well as the other health outcomes (a total of 4 models). The main exposure variable for each model, which is amount of time an observation was at risk, was the duration of virus exposure in days, from the first reported case in the reference country until May 01, 2020. Given the limited sample size (n = 50 countries), which increases the risk of overfitting in regression analysis, the potential predictors (independent variables) for model inclusion were first identified by a univariable screening process with a pre-set p = 0.25. This is a recommended approach for removing weak predictors so that a more manageable
set of predictor variables can be utilized with multivariable techniques [27. The Likelihood ratio test was then used in a backwards elimination process (p < 0.05 to retain) to select the final set of independent variables for retention in the COVID-19 outcome models. Special data handling methods were not be employed for dealing with missing data for the predictor or outcome variables. All outcomes of the regression analysis were reported as rate ratios (RR), where a value less than one suggests a decreased likelihood and a value of greater than one an increased likelihood of the event under investigation. Model goodness of fit and evaluation of outliers were assessed by the Akaike information criterion (AIC), the Bayesian information criterion (BIC) and McFadden’s pseudo R-squared statistic. Individual models were assessed with and without potential outliers to evaluate their impact on the results. All of the statistical analyses were performed using Stata, release 16.0 (Stata Corp., College Station, Texas, USA).'"
As an example, via my work, we did some analysis of the local weather patterns of the last 20 years' data from the local airport to get an insight into potential climate change impacts for local small-holder farmers. When this was analysed by a university our findings were seen as not statistically significant. Because climate changes are very slow and weather data is extremely variable, we would have needed 30 years' data, but the airport and weather station had only been built 20 years ago. Just because our data and findings / hypotheses could not be used for scientific purposes does not mean they weren't true.
I don't really like to cover to topics in one post, but for the sake of efficiency:
Sweden. The point I was making about Sweden is that they had measures in place and what you may define as a 'lockdown' is on a sliding scale. I didn't know what the structure of the Swedish education system was and assumed elementary/secondary schools were the same as elsewhere. Apparently, they refer to secondary schools as 16-19. However, the schools that were 'open' were not exactly business as usual.
https://www.tes.com/news/have-swedish-s ... ied-normal
A bit like the UK really?
The substantive point was that it's still a false dichotomy to compare countries with or without lockdown. I'm sure some people in France feel that the UK never had a lockdown. Did you frequently get challenged by police to produce documentation for proof of why you were outside the house?
Local conditions and prevalence of the virus dictate different actions. | |
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| Quote Miro="Miro"Unfortunately this is a frequently used underhand tactic by Coco. Guilty by association.'"
For example?
Again, your input into the 'discussion' is a Gish gallop of assertions and opinions without any supporting evidence.
You are absolutely free to have any opinions you wish and they require no evidence or support.
I have no interest in changing your beliefs.
if someone believes there are fairies at the bottom of their garden, that's fair enough (pun intended), but if they want to assert this as the truth to other people, they need to provide some proof.
If you wish to take part in a debate with others then you need to provide suitable evidence and support, ideally one topic at a time. | | |
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| Quote coco the fullback="coco the fullback"For example?
Again, your input into the 'discussion' is a Gish gallop of assertions and opinions without any supporting evidence.
You are absolutely free to have any opinions you wish and they require no evidence or support.
I have no interest in changing your beliefs.
if someone believes there are fairies at the bottom of their garden, that's fair enough (pun intended), but if they want to assert this as the truth to other people, they need to provide some proof.
If you wish to take part in a debate with others then you need to provide suitable evidence and support, ideally one topic at a time.'"
Unfortunately this is a frequently used underhand tactic by Coco. Guilty by association
=#BF0000"they need to provide some proof."
I already have, I challenged you on this very subject after one particular post from you. You didn't respond then so if you think I'm going to trawl back through the posts to find it now your mistaken. | | |
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TO BE FIXED |
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| Quote Miro="Miro"Unfortunately this is a frequently used underhand tactic by Coco. Guilty by association
=#BF0000"they need to provide some proof."
I already have, I challenged you on this very subject after one particular post from you. You didn't respond then so if you think I'm going to trawl back through the posts to find it now your mistaken.'"
On what subject? | | | |
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