Agreed. I suspect that the RFU plan to expand the league, but are sitting on the plan until one of the outposts goes down. I sense that they know that Leeds will rise again, and has enough local interest (if limited).

Newcastle's problems are twofold. Firstly, Wilkinson's departure leaves a big void in terms of drawing people in. Secondly, they are to an extent a made-up club. The real hotbed of rugby up there is of course around Hartlepool.

There's a certain irony that the professional era killed off the successful outpost amateur clubs in some ways. Orrell, Waterloo, Moseley, Solihull...will we ever see them back at the top table? I sense the answer is no. Of course, RL going pro killed off a fair few as well.

Surprised you think that about Newcastle. I think they'd struggle, but to think Leeds will rise again and they couldn't is something I wouldn't be sure of.

With the new Championship format, Leeds having a completely different squad already and having not signed any big names - most expect them to struggle next season. In a way I think teams shouldn't even worry about relegation next season. If Leeds can't go up and with the big names in that division like Cornish Pirates, London Welsh and Bedford all not having suitable grounds for promotion - it might be that nobody goes up this time.

The thing of course that Leeds and Newcastle don't have that Sale do - is history. Dispute the fact all you want about Sale FC becoming Sale Sharks and now having separate histories. But one way or another the two clubs have 150 years of accumulative history. Newcastle and Leeds are both relatively new clubs or have formed out of completely different teams. Leeds had their big chance last season and they blew it in my opinion. Even when they were doing really badly they were still getting over 4,000. I can't see that many people giving it another go to watch dull Rugby. I think the Newcastle fans are there in bigger and more dedicated numbers and they'd be too strong for The Championship. But again, that would depend on who stayed. They have some players who I find it hard to believe would want to play in front of a small amount of people at a tiny ground every week. Jimmy Gopperth for one. One of the best players in the league for me. Why he hasn't been tempted to come to Sale I'll never know!

Oh, I wouldn't deny Sale's history. Obviously a bit of an odd relationship (a mate of mine DJ'd at Heywood Road once and said that Sale Sharks players are't listed on the board of internationals). Leeds do have history, even if somewhat contrived. Newcastle, meanwhile, are a bit made up. Remember that Headingley was one of the clubs which was merged to form Leeds RUFC...

Leeds have of course also gone down before and returned. For Newcastle it would be a whole new story. The crowds aren't going to be magnificent (Nottingham are hardly a draw, for example!) and the TV deal will be significantly worse. Leeds though have a helping hand from being part of a dual-code setup. Otherwise it'd be a disaster.

Orrell won't see the top flight again. It really is amazing to see how far they've fallen over the past twenty years. I can remember seeing them on Rugby Special and in person as a young lad at Edge Hall Road. They now play on St John Rigby playing field and the last I heard they got changed in the pub next door.


Agreed about Leeds. As I said, they'll struggle to come back up and I really reckon this could be the start of some hard times for the club. And Gopperth is far too good for the second division.

Were Orrell ever big news? What type of crowds did they get? I'm too young to remember them being in the top flight really. You'd be surprised how many teams still regard that as their favourite away day though.

There was a vote on most of the Premiership club forums recently and a lot of them loved going to Orrell and also Otley

Do Wigan still train at Edge Hall Road?

Whenever I see a player or coach getting interviewed on Sky there's a big stand in the background that suggests it isn't just any old training pitch they're at. I've just typed Edge Hall Road into Google and the stand looks familiar.

It's before my time too, but I was always aware of them vaguely when growing up- Orrell and Sale were the local Union clubs you were at least vaguely aware of And their away following was meant to be very, very noisy.

Wasn't their hooker an England international about 10 years ago?

I can only speak from personal experience but for me Orrell were THE union club. If Wigan were away me and my dad would walk up to watch a game and as we knew a few of the folk high up we weren't given so many funny looks. Orrell and to a lesser extent Wigan RU was quite snobbish at times. Growing up, the other clubs I knew of were Waterloo, Grasshoppers, Fylde and Otley being 'the Yorkshire club'. I'm pretty sure Otley did the dirty on Orrell by throwing a game or something like that meaning that Orrell were relegated.
One of the players I remember most was Wade Kelly. To a little lad like me he seemed like a giant. Others I remember are Dewi Morris, Nigel Heslop, Austin Healey and Gerry Ainscough. All internationals who played for Orrell.
The academy sides play up at Edge Hall Road and I go up in the summer when I'm back home. It's within walking distance from my parents' house and there are a couple of nice pubs on the way

Ah, Nigel Heslop.

Famous for trying to play the hard man by hitting Serge Blanco late, then getting sparked out by one of the French forwards in retaliation...

Am I getting confused or did he get a gig on tv? I'm also pretty sure I saw him turn out for Oldham RL.



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Punditry seems to be a pretty common career choice for England players of that era - Dewi Morris, Brian Moore, Stuart Barnes, Jamie Salmon, Paul Ackford (albeit in the written media rather than TV), Jeremy Guscott etc.

He did move to Oldham in 1993, but I can't remember how long he lasted.

Till he heard Batley had signed a tighthead prop and Swinton an openside flanker from French union