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Quote: Bigredwarrior "Williams and Leuluai don’t deserve to be dropped at all. Powell is the weaker of the 3 players mentioned in my view although he works his socks off and in no way should he been seen as a scapegoat of any kind. However,

Leuluai is a better scrum half than Powell.
Leuluai is a better hooker than Powell.
Leuluai is a better hooker than he is a scrum half.
Williams is a better half back than both Powell and Leuluai

We have yet to see what Sammut can do but Lam brought him saying from day 1 that we need a half back.

I agree the run last year and winning the grand final was excellent for the club but it doesn’t mean we can’t improve on it. Sammut might not be your cup of tea but he must be Lam’s or he would never have brought him to the club. We need to see how we go with Sammut & Williams at 6 & 7 with Leuluai at 9 and Powell on the bench. If it doesn’t improve us, we can bring Powell back in and Sammut provides injury cover.'"


Tommy was blowing out his backside Friday - At his age understandable
Asking him to make 58 tackles like Powell does every game won't help us!
In the current climate having a 9 that can play 80 minutes and make 50+ tackles a game is invaluable - Especially as he's covering a lot of our front Row deficiencies in the tackling department.
I know people go on about him not scooting or being creative etc, but our Points for doesn't seem to suffer too much compared to other teams, the halves and 13 make a pretty good job of that.

I'm not against the Sammutt signing and agree that at some point he will have a big part to play in our season, but for now especially with his suspension he may just need to bide his time.
And I suspect when he does come in it will be for Tommy at first in games against a London type team for example - Just to keep Tommy fresh for what will surely be his last season?
Another reason to stick with Powell at 9 (Cue some experts saying that's not a reason to stick with Powell - Fair enough, go sign another 9 then, but until we do it's quite clear that the last 2 coaches have preferred Powell at 9 for now).

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Matt Parcell at Leeds is apparently surplus to requirements, might be worth a shot

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Quote: Jukesays "Tommy was blowing out his backside Friday - At his age understandable
Asking him to make 58 tackles like Powell does every game won't help us!
In the current climate having a 9 that can play 80 minutes and make 50+ tackles a game is invaluable - Especially as he's covering a lot of our front Row deficiencies in the tackling department.
I know people go on about him not scooting or being creative etc, but our Points for doesn't seem to suffer too much compared to other teams, the halves and 13 make a pretty good job of that.

I'm not against the Sammutt signing and agree that at some point he will have a big part to play in our season, but for now especially with his suspension he may just need to bide his time.
And I suspect when he does come in it will be for Tommy at first in games against a London type team for example - Just to keep Tommy fresh for what will surely be his last season?
Another reason to stick with Powell at 9 (Cue some experts saying that's not a reason to stick with Powell - Fair enough, go sign another 9 then, but until we do it's quite clear that the last 2 coaches have preferred Powell at 9 for now).'"


I’m not convinced the last 2 coaches preferred Powell at 9 though. I think they realised he was just not good enough at 7 and we got more out of him at 9 and had little option but to play him there to facilitate Tommy going to 7. I believe Tommy is a better hooker than Powell.

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Quote: Bigredwarrior "Williams and Leuluai don’t deserve to be dropped at all. Powell is the weaker of the 3 players mentioned in my view although he works his socks off and in no way should he been seen as a scapegoat of any kind. However,

Leuluai is a better scrum half than Powell.
Leuluai is a better hooker than Powell.
Leuluai is a better hooker than he is a scrum half.
Williams is a better half back than both Powell and Leuluai

We have yet to see what Sammut can do but Lam brought him saying from day 1 that we need a half back.

I agree the run last year and winning the grand final was excellent for the club but it doesn’t mean we can’t improve on it. Sammut might not be your cup of tea but he must be Lam’s or he would never have brought him to the club. We need to see how we go with Sammut & Williams at 6 & 7 with Leuluai at 9 and Powell on the bench. If it doesn’t improve us, we can bring Powell back in and Sammut provides injury cover.'"



None of the 3 deserve or should be dropped. Considering our winning record. It would be a disgrace for any of them to be dropped for Sammut. You keeping talking about approving, and I agree we can improve on the halves, but currently Sammut from his record and calibre in comparison to any of the 3 discussed does not deserve to leapfrog them in the pecking order. Not a chance. What a terrible message that would send to the rest of the squad.

And for Sammut as a signing? I question it, don't forget we know for a fact he was at LEAST 3rd choice, we know we chased Hastings then Lachlan Lam. I honestly think they offered Sammut a low contract, of which Sammut jumped at, as it's a golden opportunity to keep playing for a living, in this case with the champs.

Everything needs to be in context.

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Quote: Last Son of Wigan "None of the 3 deserve or should be dropped. Considering our winning record. It would be a disgrace for any of them to be dropped for Sammut. You keeping talking about approving, and I agree we can improve on the halves, but currently Sammut from his record and calibre in comparison to any of the 3 discussed does not deserve to leapfrog them in the pecking order. Not a chance. What a terrible message that would send to the rest of the squad.

And for Sammut as a signing? I question it, don't forget we know for a fact he was at LEAST 3rd choice, we know we chased Hastings then Lachlan Lam. I honestly think they offered Sammut a low contract, of which Sammut jumped at, as it's a golden opportunity to keep playing for a living, in this case with the champs.

Everything needs to be in context.'"


From what you’re saying no player should ever be dropped because it would “send a terrible message to the squad” what you’re forgetting however is last season Sam Tomkins took over game management and the kicking side of the game, 2 things which neither Tommy ot Powell are any good at, and from what I’ve seen Sammut looks like he can organise us round the park

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Quote: KingRoss11 "From what you’re saying no player should ever be dropped because it would “send a terrible message to the squad” what you’re forgetting however is last season Sam Tomkins took over game management and the kicking side of the game, 2 things which neither Tommy ot Powell are any good at, and from what I’ve seen Sammut looks like he can organise us round the park'"



No I'm not saying that at all. Please read my posts more carefully before wrongly putting words in my mouth.

You've misunderstood the point.

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Quote: Last Son of Wigan "None of the 3 deserve or should be dropped. Considering our winning record. It would be a disgrace for any of them to be dropped for Sammut. You keeping talking about approving, and I agree we can improve on the halves, but currently Sammut from his record and calibre in comparison to any of the 3 discussed does not deserve to leapfrog them in the pecking order. Not a chance. What a terrible message that would send to the rest of the squad.

And for Sammut as a signing? I question it, don't forget we know for a fact he was at LEAST 3rd choice, we know we chased Hastings then Lachlan Lam. I honestly think they offered Sammut a low contract, of which Sammut jumped at, as it's a golden opportunity to keep playing for a living, in this case with the champs.

Everything needs to be in context.'"


I also have reservations about Sammut. However, I’m prepared to give him a fair chance to prove himself.
We can’t say really compare him to players operating in SL as we haven’t seen him at that level in our squad yet. Look at Bullock. A player who we released and brought back from lower leagues and after 2 games is arguably one of our best forwards.

My point is purely that at the end of last season, the vast majority of us wanted us to bring in a scrum half. We have done so and he deserves a chance to succeed or to fall flat on his face. We don’t know what Lam sees in him, or how he is in training. If Lam thinks he deserves a go, I’ll back his judgment. That said, I think it’ll be the same 17 on Sunday.

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Quote: Bigredwarrior "I also have reservations about Sammut. However, I’m prepared to give him a fair chance to prove himself.
We can’t say really compare him to players operating in SL as we haven’t seen him at that level in our squad yet. Look at Bullock. A player who we released and brought back from lower leagues and after 2 games is arguably one of our best forwards.

My point is purely that at the end of last season, the vast majority of us wanted us to bring in a scrum half. We have done so and he deserves a chance to succeed or to fall flat on his face. We don’t know what Lam sees in him, or how he is in training. If Lam thinks he deserves a go, I’ll back his judgment. That said, I think it’ll be the same 17 on Sunday.'"



I do see your point. I just think there's a bigger picture. Sammut should earn his place in the team, there's no justification to have him leapfrog the others who are part of a winning team. The 3 in discussion don't deserve to be dropped.

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Quote: Last Son of Wigan "I do see your point. I just think there's a bigger picture. Sammut should earn his place in the team, there's no justification to have him leapfrog the others who are part of a winning team. The 3 in discussion don't deserve to be dropped.'"


How can he earn his place if he isn’t given a chance to play? We shouldn’t wait until there is a serous injury to a player before giving him a shot.
I’d also argue that there is no need for anybody to be dropped from the 17. I’d give Powell a bench spot.

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Quote: Bigredwarrior "How can he earn his place if he isn’t given a chance to play? We shouldn’t wait until there is a serous injury to a player before giving him a shot.
I’d also argue that there is no need for anybody to be dropped from the 17. I’d give Powell a bench spot.'"


Like everyone else. Like TT or any of the younger lads coming through.
You pick your best team, if people are performing you can't just drop them, if the team is winning, especially to make way for someone who has no right to leapfrog the others.

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Quote: Bigredwarrior "How can he earn his place if he isn’t given a chance to play? We shouldn’t wait until there is a serous injury to a player before giving him a shot.
I’d also argue that there is no need for anybody to be dropped from the 17. I’d give Powell a bench spot.'"

I think that Powell will start from the bench together with 3 props and Sammut will start in the halves when available. I don't think that it is matter of "dropping a player but Sammut will probably give us more balance and hopefully add to our pretty poor kicking game. The downside to this is that it will impact on defence and the first 2 games we seem to have much less intensity than last season so this may well compound this issue.
We have lost our only game player in ST and Sammut I can only assume was signed to cover part of ST's old role.

The problem for me is Escare. Yes he's exciting and can bring a bit of flair but I haven't got a clue what his position is as I don't think he can play in the halves and for a FB is defence isn't the best. Ideally we could have traded Escare and got a better player than Sammut but we are where we are so although I am not overly enamoured with Sammut he is a Wigan player so personally I will give him my support.

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Quote: Bigredwarrior "I’m not convinced the last 2 coaches preferred Powell at 9 though. I think they realised he was just not good enough at 7 and we got more out of him at 9 and had little option but to play him there to facilitate Tommy going to 7. I believe Tommy is a better hooker than Powell.'"


I would hazard a guess that the previous coaches worked out that at that current time Tommy at 7 and Powell at 9 worked "Better for the Team"and I would argue results backed that up.
Now the new coach has gone with the same I can only assume he believes that also however as Sammutt got himself banned in a pre-season friendly the option has so far been taken off him.
As I say with Powell racking up 50+ tackles & 80 minutes every week I can't see him changing it, certainly this week.
Moving forward if Sammutt proves himself in training and or when an opportunity arises I can see him playing 7 - But Tommy will deffo not be playing 9 each week for 80minutes for the next 30 games.
He may go with Tommy off the bench and/or alternate them both but that will affect how we use our substitutes if we go with a 9 off the bench.

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Quote: Itchy Arsenal "I think that Powell will start from the bench together with 3 props and Sammut will start in the halves when available. I don't think that it is matter of "dropping a player but Sammut will probably give us more balance and hopefully add to our pretty poor kicking game. The downside to this is that it will impact on defence and the first 2 games we seem to have much less intensity than last season so this may well compound this issue.
We have lost our only game player in ST and Sammut I can only assume was signed to cover part of ST's old role.

The problem for me is Escare. Yes he's exciting and can bring a bit of flair but I haven't got a clue what his position is as I don't think he can play in the halves and for a FB is defence isn't the best. Ideally we could have traded Escare and got a better player than Sammut but we are where we are so although I am not overly enamoured with Sammut he is a Wigan player so personally I will give him my support.'"


Dropping Powell. I guess his high tackle count, 80 minute efforts and overall contribution warrants dropping to the bench for a player who's never really made it at SL level.

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Quote: Bigredwarrior "I also have reservations about Sammut. However, I’m prepared to give him a fair chance to prove himself.
We can’t say really compare him to players operating in SL as we haven’t seen him at that level in our squad yet. Look at Bullock. A player who we released and brought back from lower leagues and after 2 games is arguably one of our best forwards.

My point is purely that at the end of last season, the vast majority of us wanted us to bring in a scrum half. We have done so and he deserves a chance to succeed or to fall flat on his face. We don’t know what Lam sees in him, or how he is in training. If Lam thinks he deserves a go, I’ll back his judgment. That said, I think it’ll be the same 17 on Sunday.'"


And the same could be said in reverse
If he doesn't pick him then things might be going well and/or Sammutt may be struggling

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Quote: Jukesays "There's enough people on here and other social media dressing things that aren't poor up as poor, why not try and do things the other way for a change?

That attendance is in line and or better than the Home Leeds attendances we were getting in 2000/2001/2002/2003 when we had some of the best players from all over the world, proof that things weren't always better and bringing very expensive stars over doesn't always improve the crowds.

If we were to get a 20k crowd on Sunday there will be some people dressing that up as Bad - When it will be as good or better than what we have done in the past and/or what Leeds/Saints etc have achieved at their Home Grounds i.e. Headingley or Langtree pk'"

Proof would also suggest then that even with a winning team if the crowd isn't entertained then winning several trophies over a few also doesn't guarantee improving the gate. From a personal point of view from 2015 to 2017 most games at the JJB were pretty dire and I know quite a few people who stopped attending during this time and haven't comeback to watch any games during the season let alone start buying a season ticket again.

There are probably lots of reasons for declining gates from the quality of the game to people just moving on to other interests whatever the reasons are it is pretty worrying and hopefully IL has some plans to turn this around even it takes 3 or 4 years. I keep hearing that some of the marketing staff have left and haven't been replaced I just hope that if this is true that it is just a short term situation and the plan is to further invest in marketing the club in the future.

I'd be more than happy with a +18k crowd on Sunday and in the current climate I think that would be more than acceptable although I am sure IL will have a different view in that for him this one match where we need to maximise our income.

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