Fair enough, I think you have a deeper insight into the game in this regard so I'll take your word on it. It was annoying me how we seemed to keep sending forwards back into the markers, making it a fight to get past where we had just been tackled, rather than 5 easy metres forward before the defence even makes contact.

You missed Smithies

Simple put -

I think we are all happy with the kids - Havard, Smithies, Partington, Byrne, Sharrocks etc

I think most are pretty happy with the developing props - Bullock and Clark.

The problem is our 3 experienced Front line “main props”

Clubb Flower and Burgess. All look finished. Disaster.

As I’ve said before if we put our developing/young props behind a “Hill Cooper” “Walamsley Graham/Thompson hell even a “Mossop and Dudson” “Watts and Griffin” type partnership we’d be fine.

It’s the experienced props holding us back and an over reliance on the kids.

Posted this on the other site but think it's relevant to this. Our problem is the lack of value we get from our experienced forwards, with the exception of Faz and Isa.

Saints pack includes Taia (35), Peyroux (31), LMS (34), Walmsley (30), Amor (32), Paulo (32), Graham (35).

Wire have Hill (32), Cooper (32), Clark (31) all above 30.

The problem for us is we've got Clubb (33), O'Loughlin (37) and Flower (32) who are our established players, top earners, offering absolutely nothing like the sort of quality that the 30+ players at Saints and Wire are. All 3 of those were thrust back into the first team when they were fit (Flower signed a contract under Wane as a guaranteed starter), so presumably are on top 13 wages.

Taia, LMS, Walmsley, Amor, Graham, Hill and Cooper are all 90-to-100 metres+ per game players. They are superb value for their experience. They are the leaders of the team and can carry the responsibility and the good young players at those clubs don't have to flog themselves game after game and carry them.

We've also got Burgess (2icon_cool.gif and Clark (27). Two new signings who should be in their peak years that have so far offered very little.

Farrell and Isa should have plenty of years left at the top of their game but we've got good youngsters waiting in the wings to suggest we've got some cover there. Our problem is mainly down the middle and the absolutely shocking return we're getting for our experienced players compared to other teams.

Our youngsters are good. So many really promising players among there. The problem is they tend to be our best performing players. They tend to be the ones earning their place and then we play them and their flaws get exposed but the established players don't back them up.

Byrne is a good prospect but he shouldn't be playing regularly like he has done for most of this year. It's been highlighted in recent games that his defence is nowhere near up to scratch. The problem is we put in better defenders like Flower and they don't offer the same in terms of carries.

We've got good young forwards but most are lightweight and grafters. Shorrocks has been playing down the middle for us, usually when Farrell is also down the middle meaning one of those two is playing prop. That's madness. They are both smaller than many centres.

In fairness to Lam he identified the need for more size and power down the middle but the signings haven't delivered that, and the youngsters aren't likely to produce that.

On a dry day our lightweight pack and younger players look capable of handling some big sides. Some of that is probably down to outside backs like French, Gildart, Burgess and Hardaker too. In poor conditions when it's a hard slog up the middle we really shouldn't be playing a 95kg loose forward as a prop alongside another 95kg second rower.

There's a lot of value in hard running props but the only player we have who really fits the bill is Bullock. The performance of Kilner against Saints provides some hope but yet again that's us pinning hopes on another youngster.

Our established middles currently aren't good enough and they're a waste of salary cap right now.

In the meantime if Lam could just stop playing Farrell at 13 it would be great. He was a man of steel contender playing left side second row, a real threat with the ball and our best player. He's barely been noticeable since he moved to the middle. Why are we wasting our best player to accommodate Greenwood, who is nowhere near as good. It seems it's because despite his size Greenwood can't play down the middle. Well he shouldn't be picked.

Yep, in years past you might think that all these youngsters will come good at the same time and we'll dominate, but these days it's more likely that they'll go down under if they are any good.

Yep, we’ll put up with them developing learning the ropes, getting bashed about when they are young and undersized.

Then some Aussie team will reap the rewards. We’ll get them back when they are old and crocked.

Depressing.

Absolutely correct. If we decide to keep Flower on out of sentiment next season I think some fans may self combust! Whoever signed off on the desk to keep Clubb should hang their heads in shame. The Burgess one is a bit different. As a fan I was excited to get him but I don’t need to sit there and do checks on signings and look at any fitness concerns but if I’m going to part with big money for a player as a club owner or chief exec, I want to be sure they’re not crippled with injury.

Basically until the two old heads are both out and replaced and until Burgess is either sorted out fitness wise or leaves, we’re a bit stuck. The kids are great, theres some potential in a couple of others and Singleton may work out ok but we’re desperate for a man to build our front row around.

Singleton is a replacemen tfor flower.

We need to replace George Burgess and Clubb with some quality

It seems that we are both talking about the repetitive nature of our attack and how easily we are dominated.

Sadly we can’t do that for another year with Clubb and another two with George Burgess and we’ve only ourselves to blame.

I can't find any fault in your summary. The problem reverts to IFL and Rads and their recruitment of senior players.

in the main we have been very poor at making hard yards for at least three seasons now, in the nrl if a forward doesn't make 75 mts a game they are gone.

He played because he was cover for SOL who according to this thread is a middle therefore et al Shorrocks is a middle

Why have we signed Bateman then? Another lightweight second rower

Because he's in the top 5 players in his position, 27 and is an absolute animal.

He's proven time and time again that his size isn't a hindrance to him being a truly world-class player.