We went from an underachieving side to GF winners in the space of an off season.

If you are saying we won the GF this year due to a steady progress over a number of years that finally got us there I think you are wrong.

What has happened at the club since the end of 2009 is basically a revolution.

The last time we had a similar revolution was when Lowe arrived who replaced Clarke and McInnes who has just won the cup in 1985.

So to answer the question posed by the o/p I think history will take a simple view of the period in question. Generally in the doldrums for 9 years going nowhere fast until IL took over and appointed the right coaches and back room staff.

Dave

The Great Transitional Period

Would the same "Revolution" in the Off season been possible if it had happened end of 2006 and not 2009?

Clarke & McCinness had not just won the cup when Lowe took over, they'd done it the year before.

Would Lowe have come in 81/82? He did come in 86/87 due to the clubs steady improvement in 88/83/84/85/86.
If he had come in 81/82 would he have achieved the same overnight Miracle transition and reached the heights he did in 86/87?

I doubt it, the infratructure wasn't in place for him to do it with.

I think Maguire etc would have improved us & probably more & quicker than Noble did if he had taken charge 2006, but he wouldn't have got us to where we are now in 1 season IMO.
The reason he has been able to do it (again IMO) is partly down to a lot of the infrastructure put in place 2007/08/09 that he has been able to reap the benefits of. Some of that were Noble's doing, a lot were IL's. Other things such as Marketting etc were in place pre both of them and believe it or not I think ML could deserve a hint of credit for employing them.
He still had a lot of work to do and possibly I think he may have slightly Over ahcieved were Noble Slightly under achieved given the merits of the playing squads etc available to both, Bearing in mind the Youth set-up & Back up was IMO far stronger when Noble Left and handed over to Maguire than What Noble inheritted from Millward & the 2 years previous to that.

Same applies with Lowe.

Would he have been able to turn the JPS winning team of 83 into WCC in 1 season with the players we had at that time?
IMO I don't think so.

The groundwork was done in the 3-4 seasons prior to his arrival with the continual improvement of the squad, recruitment, attendances etc that meant that a lot of what was needed was in place on arrival/

Again, Clarke/McCinness couldn't get us over that line, Lowe did (Spectacularly).

I know what you want everyone to believe Dave, I just don't agree.
I could draw similar parallels in Footbal with Ferguson at Man U, Cantona was the Spark, but if Ferguson hadn't completely overalled Man U in the Youth set up and Backroom departments and brought a totally different attitude to the club then Cantona's spark may not have happened.

If Ferguson had been sacked maybe someone else would have benefitted from his good work at a later stage?

It's always darkest just before dawn

Started ok but slowly dropped back in the pack then steamed up to snatch it late on the line

We started the decade well. League leaders in 2000 and really should have won it. 2nd in 2001 and the GF. CC winners in 2002, GF and CC semi in 2003, CC final in 2004. Then the wheels fell off and we missed the playoffs in 2005 (injuries really did ruin us that year) and of course 2006. Then the Nobby/IL revolution came in and the club was completely re-built but we couldn't go that one extra step. Enter MM and the rest is history.

How would I describe it - Scattered showers with sunny intervals coming brighter towards the end

Great summary

This decade has been a low for us and yet other clubs would dream of this success.

Undoubtedly IMO. Had a coach with Madges methods been appointed in 2006 instead of Noble I see absolutely no reason not to believe that following an off season under the new coach the team would have played in the same way as it has in 2010 instead of the way it did in 2007 and the next two years after that.



What do you mean by infrastructure exactly? Please define it.

In any case you don't know if any of that is true but it's not really relevant to today anyway. Most people accept Lowe was a revolutionary coach that took Wigan to the next level. Madge has taken Wigan from a lot lower level to top of the pile in his first season.



What Madge did was replace everything that Noble had in place with his own methods. The entire back room staff was replaced. The coaching methods completely changed. The fitness regime completely changed. The way the team was selected was completely changed. This was not fine tuning some well oiled machine set up by Noble but completely replacing whatever Noble did.

The reason Noble lost his job was because what he did and more importantly the way he did it, didn't work. In 2007/2008/2009 we saw NO improvement. Three virtually carbon copy season where no progress was made. It is just not credible to suggest this was some work in progress that Madge has benefited from or we would have seen steady improvement in those three seasons and we did not. Comparing the way this season has gone to those three is like comparing chalk to cheese. It is has not been an incremental improvement but a stark contrast.

The way Noble did things no longer happens at the club. To suggest Noble put things in place and Madge is reaping the benefits is simply not true IMO and takes credit away from Madge. There is no doubt in my mind the season we have just had is all down to what Madge has brought to the club and the fact he replaced whatever "infrastructure" Noble put in place. And Noble's outdated methods certainly needed replacing.



I don't think anyone quite expected a GF win but it just shows what modern methods and coaching can achieve given the same squad of players Noble had in 2009. Saying Noble "slightly" underachieved is being far too kind given Madge took basically the same group of players to another level despite not having a Trent Barrett to paper over the cracks.



You can draw whatever parallels you like. You are still just wrong. Cause and effect is what we have here and it's that simple. Noble and his methods went out of the window and it's no coincidence with the new bloke in charge things changed dramatically for the better.

You also give far to much credit both back in the 1980's and now to this notion of some sort of build up to success you have cooked up. Being a coach is a short term job. It always has been and we can see that when the best coaches left we went backwards and when the good ones arrive we improve. It's not a coincidence and the success of the good coaches is not built upon anything the poor ones left behind. It's because they replaced what had failed. That is all that happened with Noble and Madge.

With a bit of luck Madge will leave a positive legacy behind for Wane to carry on but I am absolutely certain Noble left nothing behind of any value to Madge.

Dave

Spot on in everything you say, Dave. (third time this year I've agreed with you!).

The only thing I would add to this bitWhat Madge did was replace everything that Noble had in place with his own methods. The entire back room staff was replaced. The coaching methods completely changed. The fitness regime completely changed. The way the team was selected was completely changed.
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is: the way the team played was completely changed (no more "5 drives and kick to Pat"icon_wink.gif, and the club culture was completely changed.

It's not even necessary to take our word for it: many players and ex-players (reading between the lines where necessary) have alluded to it, while (quite rightly, as professionals) avoiding direct criticism of Noble.

Couldn't agree more.

I for one do not buy the “Noble put the infrastructure in place” to enable us to achieve what we have this season. For starters he broke the world record transfer fee bringing in Fielden.

I don’t know any stats on this, but how did our reserve team perform throughout the decade in comparison to other super league clubs? How many Wigan born players play throughout super league? Wigan have an abundance of local talent to pick from just down to the number of teams playing rugby. Let’s face it were a rugby daft town, to suggest that the infrastructure needed putting in place is rubbish.

Granted, IL has worked wonders, his biggest successes – not letting good young players move on, and hiring our current coach, who as others have already stated has simply improved all aspects of coaching / training / fitness conditioning since arriving.

I think that just about sums it up, As long as I know from now on that "I am Still just Wrong!".

And here's me thinking you were the person who keeps telling everyone that internet message boards/forums were for people to express an opinion!
Seems like someone should take a word of their own advice?

As an aside

My perspective, What IL & BN did in 2007/2008/2009 and the natural progression/Maturity of the Youth players, that IL and BN oversaw in those years (Which was a longer term view to gain success rather than the "Overnight" method that had failed over the previous 5/6 years, Made Madge's job much easier than if he had taken over in 2006.
In 2007 the Infrastructure (Youth set-up/ players at his disposal/ attitude at the club/financial set up etc etc etc) were far different to what existed at the end of 2009.

Do I think Madges success would have happened in 2007? Not sure? As I said earlier I think he would have done what Noble did and prbably better/quicker etc.
Was Maguire experienced enough to do that in 2006? I doubt it (If that opinions alright with you?)
If a different coach had come in would he have replicated what Madge did in 2010?

But I believe the Club as a whole was far better prepared for this season and that was in "Some Part" helped by the patience and work of a number of people (IL & BN included) in 2007/2008/2009.

I predict this post will be sliced into 8 segments for it's long winded reply. Anyone like to bet higher or lower?

Dave, whilst I agree that all the credit for this year should go to madge, I think nobby should get some credit for the overall "health" of the club.

After all it was a monumental balls up leading up to 2006, which he sorted out, with the help of the return from injury of some players.

Really glad we got rid though.