I am still under the impression that SW is one game away from leaving his post at the end of the season. I said it before the CC QF, and we scraped through. That has now moved onto the Salford game - lose and unless the side then go on and win 6 or 7 super 8 games to scrape 4th, beat Cas in their own back yard in the SF and then win the GF, we will have a new head coach next season.

The lack of intensity and effort on Thursday tells me that all the eggs are in the Challenge Cup basket.

All eggs are obviously in the CC basket and I think have been for a while however the club will keep saying we're going for top 4 to keep SL ticket sales up (not that it's working).

Cheers Itchy

I do feel like no change will happen whilst we attain success through our methods, if we get anywhere near the top 4 and make the CC final I feel SW will still be our coach next year. Regardless of a trophy-less season, we will simply carry on as usual.

Another thing I wanted to mention was the apparent treatment of Romain Navarette...if he was told his Wigan career was over after the Leigh game, that alone tells me that there are serious, and I mean serious problems within the clubs management structure. I genuinely feel like he was struggling to get his fitness levels to the standard required by Wigan, but that is a process, he was after all an investment/project, similar to Ben Flower and Gil Dudson IIRC. His defence needed work but his go-forward was impressive. The only saving grace seems to be he was homesick, so maybe it is the best case all round. The way Shaun Wane treats the younger players worries me, yet Willie Isa, Joel Tomkins, Tommy L and Ben Flower seem exempt no matter how bad they play! If I am right, all those mentioned have played equally as bad as Romain at times.

Having said all that though, I must add I have very little idea of who we would possibly replace Shaun with...

I thought we looked exhausted during the warm-up.

Just a point on that, might just be me but the warm up doesn't seem to have changed for years.
The players look like they're just going through the motions, all half hearted or mucking around.
Back in the Lowe/Monie era the warm ups seemed to get faster and faster as they went on and they would start a match in the way they'd finish the warm up.

Fair play, I didn't say it was gospel, if its a rumour then sound, no issue. The guy must just be homesick and in that case him returning home is best for all parties.

I kinda backed up my theory of his record with younger players...they get treated differently regarding performance levels than the senior players. I have no evidence of what goes on behind the scenes.

For me the Williams/Leuleai partnership is all wrong, they don't compliment each other and it's not helping Williams to play to his potential. Personally I wouldn't have signed TL, he hasn't been at the top of his game for the best part of a decade and he has brought back all of his bad habits with him, especially his god awful kicking game. Say what you like about Matty Smith but he has a better kicking game than Tommy (though god knows that's not hard) and he complimented George much better. Bringing Tommy back was fan service (like another couple of re-signings I can think of) that boosts shirt sales, not game play.

On the subject of our kicking game, apart from some attacking grubbers around the try line we have no last play game plan at all. If we are in our own half we hoof it aimlessly down field, usually into the full back's waiting hands. If we are in the opposition half, even by a meter, we put a bomb up, which most of the time goes too long to chase effectively and we gift them easy possession and yardage (the exception being when we boot it straight up and down and make no ground whatsoever). The fact that any Tom, Dick or Harry is putting these bombs up speaks volumes about our organisation in this regard.

With halfbacks it's not necessarily how well they link up together, as on many occasions they are split on each side of the field, but as you say Williams and Leuluai don't seem to compliment each other in terms of their strengths and weaknesses.

Like many going off what I've read on these forums, I wasn't a fan of Smith and thought that after 2 generally poor years we needed a change (and he probably needed that change too), but I didn't think Leuluai was the answer, given his kicking game is at best inconsistent and generally quite poor. I didn't see the logic in replacing someone whose only significant strength was a good long kicking game (something we didn't get from anyone else in the squad), and replacing him with a player whose main threat when he used to play for us was his running game.

Smith left presumably because he wasn't really doing what he was known for doing. In his last 2 years at the club his kicking game was often poor, his last tackle plays were crazy and he showed pretty much no ability to think creatively. However, we're seeing the same issues with our last tackle plays no matter who is in the side, so perhaps this is more than just an issue with our playmakers, but something completely wrong with how the team plays.

It got so frustrating last year when Smith was chucking the ball to prop forwards on the last tackle and I thought it surely had to be down to indecisiveness on his part. However, we're doing the same daft things at the end of sets. The players fail to gain repeat sets, seemingly forget what tackle it is or look for the option to run when setting up for a more conservative kick would do.

There's a slight issue for Leuluai in that he plays on the right and his ability to combine with those players around him is hampered by the constant changes down that edge. He's had Davies and Marshall on that wing, Gelling, Forsyth and Isa in the centres and J Tomkins, Isa and Wells in the second row before Bateman's return. It's hard for a halfback in a team that does try to structure its attacks when the personnel keeps changing.

However, that doesn't excuse the mistakes he's made at important times this year, particularly with some terrible kicking. Last tackle plays are vital. They can be the difference between keeping a team pinned in their own 20 and having them march down the field and score. Leuluai and Williams need to take some of the blame for our poor attacking play close to the line, but I also think that the problem lies with the entire team more than the individuals.

If you consider some of the times Williams or Leuluai have put in poor kicks on the last tackle. They need good service from whoever is passing the ball, they need the forwards on their inside to be able to hold up the defenders in the middle, they need the attacking players on their outside to be lined up correctly and offering an outlet for a pass or a kick, otherwise all the defence has to do is close the player down quickly and leave him nowhere to turn. The halves will usually get the blame for poor last tackle kicks but it definitely seems like the entire team has no idea how to organise a good last tackle play.

Absolutely agree with Cherry.Pie...I wasn't a fan of bringing TL back, but read a lot of positives saying he would bring our attacking prowess up to scratch and tbf at the beginning of the season, it looked to have worked. I do believe you have nailed it with the fact his right side has changed so much, it is difficult to find any stability or form.

Moving TL up to hooker, rotating him with Powell/Ganson, and allowing George Williams and Josh Woods to form a working partnership would be my call, both young and eager and with enough game time they would both be world beaters. I don't think anyone available would be an improvement on this. I know the rumours circulating regards Sandow and Hodgkinson are nice to read, but we can only expect 1 possible 2 years from both of these and its going to cost a lot.

Forgetting Micky at hooker or not a fan? I see a huge difference in our go forward when Micky goes off, similar to that of SOL. I just wish he could do some more minutes as we're only getting about 20 minutes a half from him at best.

I would happily take Hodkinson for two years, especially having watched him against the Broncos yesterday. Take Parcell for example, he may only do two years at Leeds but what a player he is for those two years plus the players coming up around him can learn a lot from him. Woods looks a promising player from what I've seen, imagine the experience he could get as an understudy to an Origin rep player.

I'm not convinced about Woods to be honest. In the U19's at times this year and last he's looked very good but given our resources you'd expect our halfbacks to impress most weeks. I don't think he's as impressive as the likes of Powell, Williams, Hampshire and Shorrocks have been before him. The current U19's halfback Harry Smith looks like a more promising player in my opinion.
However, I've not seen how Woods has been doing for Swinton and if he's impressed there then that shows he can perform at a higher level than the U19's. I don't think he's close to being ready for the first team and hasn't even signed a professional contract yet.

I'm a big fan of Ganson and think he's one of the most naturally gifted attacking hookers I've seen at that level. It's not so much pace and elusiveness like a Clark or Dwyer, but intelligence and ingenuity. His try creating cross field kick from a yard out at dummy half against Saints in the U19's derby is just one example of his ingenuity and vision. For me he's a player who needs first team chances and I think he's a better attacking option at dummy half than Powell.

I also prefer Leuluai at hooker, although his defence is generally outstanding when he plays in the halves. He can put in some very dangerous quick, short passes that trouble defences. And while he's never really been that direct when playing hooker on the rare occasions he does run the ball his power and footwork usually make him more dangerous than someone like Powell or McIlorum.

There's no doubt the halfbacks are our biggest issue. Our game sense is just appalling and nobody is taking control for us. We're crying out for a player with a cool head to demand the ball on the last tackle and to direct the players around him. I've never seen a worse balanced pairing then Williams and Leuluai yet both are good players in their own right.

Me too. It's more about general team organisation than individual players. I certainly think Tommy has been disappointing, especially after seeing him play well for the Warriors in his last season there, and there seems little doubt that that *some* of the reason for that can be put down to the changing personnel on the right side of our attack. I'd be happy to see both Shorrocks and Woods given more game time next season, and they both have a bit of a kicking game, don't they? It also really bugs me that we never seem to run from dummy half; why not? Tommy could provide that option from 9.