Playing behind a well-beaten pack doesn't help. That game was lost up front, and lost early. Too many missed tackles, too many offloads allowed, too many quick PTBs allowed, too many penalties given away as a consequence. We put in some decent kicks early on, pinned them on their own line, then released the pressure every time.

It was extremely difficult as a fan watching Warrington's off-loading game totally kill us, with Wigan just falling for it again and again.

One thing we are really lacking at present is someone on the field with vision, someone who can see where the problems are and rectify them on the hoof.

Lockers had a bad day at the office last Saturday, but I'm not sure he's any use to us only playing 10 minutes each half anyway. I've said this in the past and been jumped on, opponents arguing that he's a talisman who still wins us matches. The problem is that there was always going to be a point where that didn't happen, and unfortunately it's happened in what was possiby the most important game of the year.

That's why it's a big issue for me that we get no leadership or direction from our halves, or from Tommy L. When SL is off the field, there seems to be no one on the field with any nous or clout. Sam has been leading from the back to an extent, but he's now blotted his copybook again, and is leaving anyway.

I don't disagree with you about our forwards by the way. They were totally hammered by Wire, and ought to be ashamed to call themselves Wigan forwards.

Completely agree with that. Bateman has shown signs of leadership, certainly from the front anyway but his future is up in the air. I do worry who will be the leader when SOL retires, I can’t really think of a suitable replacement candidate off the top of my head.

The fact that the ball kept ending up with Faz on the lasy tackle was nothing short of disgraceful, and revealed a degree of headless chicken disorganisation that I could scarcely believe in a professional team. No doubt Warrington fans will consider this a churlish comment, but it's a fact: they played well but Wigan made it very, very easy for them.

It may be, given that we haven't got any halfbacks who can kick.

I've just said it on another topic....like FMC said, reading the post on here is like reading the posts on Wire last year.

We called everything and everyone...but the bottom line was the pack....like Wigan it just wasn't/isn't good enough.

I was very surprised IL didn't replace the lost of a prop early season. Why?...is he becoming tight again like he did at London?

I didn't say anything about him buying things.

stats are all well and good if you want to glamorise something but they do not show a full picture. i'm pretty sure Sarges' stats were better than Gildarts in the first few games this year and you can take from that what you wish.

I think Powell is trying his best and is doing a decent job, Squad standard at best yes, but it is much more than I can say for Williams who looks to have been in a different world for about a year. again, don't get on at me about our pack, when Williams is on the ball he is a one trick pony with no desire (or at least to the eye) to try anything different - that is not his coach stifling his play. he has had ample opportunity to show us his off the cuff play that we all raved about early in his career but i'm sad to say that is not apparent in his game anymore hence why I feel there may be other influences. he looks to surrender tackles too easily instead of trying something, is constantly out of position (considering everyone rants about Wane keeping him too structured) and although he shows bursts of speed and provides the odd break does little more for me at present.

normally i'd settle for that but not when he is a marquee player and the club is already up to limit.

My own opinion on the non replacement is someone did the sums wrong and wigan simply don’t have the cash to sign anyone at present

You lost me when you said “I've heard a lot about him away from these forums such as very bad habits with money; he's happy to pi$$ it up the wall whichever way he does but doesn't earn it on the pitch”. I really really don’t get how this is in any way relevant and just emphasises you have something against the lad. I feel he’s become a lot of people’s scapegoat because he’s a young lad who’s doing very well for himself - so of course we should knock him.

Have to agree to disagree on stats. I’m a fair believer that they just give a factual representation of what someone has done, you just can’t argue with them. Stats take any bias or personal feeling toward an individual or team and chuck it out the window.

Powell is bringing absolutely nothing for me and that’s not his fault, I just don’t think he’s a super league standard 7. We need a seven who can take control so that Williams can use his running game, simple.

it has everything to do with my concerns... think about it, is name was on every young lads shirt, playing like a true potential wigan legend and was setting the English game on fire. signs a marque contract, form quickly drops and hasn't recovered since. all while the REPORTs I've read (which have already been brought up and discussed on here might I add) state he has been seen getting rather shirty doing something with money a lot of us don't have the luxury of doing. i'm not saying I believe those rumours at all, but it would be telling and it makes sense to me knowing what that kind of off the field behaviour can do to you mentally. so yes i'm concerned that this may be one of the reasons for his lack of form. he isn't my scapegoat, I've been on about him for about a year now. if you are on marque money you should be delivering. whether tha stats say it or not, if you have watched Williams of late and honestly think he is making the effort he should be then you are very easily pleased. again, had he still been on a more youth-orientated contract I probably wouldn't be too worried. in fact i'm actually concerned for him and the club. if the club can't or won't help him then we need to think whether his marquee status is worthwhile.

again with the stats... that's like saying the tory government are only in because the majority voted for them. its more likely they are in because of the majority of people that didn't vote at all.

All I can say about George Williams is that I've seen him and his mates in my local a few times, but he has always appeared friendly and was only drinking soft drinks.

But yeah, his form has gone backwards and I can't see how Shaun Wane is to blame for that.

"again with the stats... that's like saying the tory government are only in because the majority voted for them. its more likely they are in because of the majority of people that didn't vote at all."

This is a very poor argument against stats. How do you know the majority of people who didn't vote wouldn't also have voted Tory? The fact is, the Tories are in because the majority of people who voted (according to our system) voted Tory. Any other statistic or 'what if' is completely irrelevant.

Statistics tell the full story if used in the correct way. Unfortunately they very often aren't and people attempt 'spin by omission'. I think this is what you're alluding to here.

As to George, his stats do tell the story. However they don't take into account expectation, much as Sam's tenure in the NRL is often coloured by the expectation his enormous wage put on him. It all comes down to what you expect from a marquee player as you say. On that score, I think it fair to expect more than we're currently getting.

that is entirely my point, the stats have shown what they are able to show, i.e. what can be measured, but they do not show you the entire equation. they can show you his metres gained, how many tries he has to his name but they do not show you many other elements such as desire, enthusiasm, fitness, quick-thinking, decisive plays etc.

I actually agree with you all here it does sound like i'm griping on about him a little too much but I must once again point out, considering the mess wigan is in as we all now know, a player of marquee status needs to be doing more. my concern is that his off the field habits may be having a detrimental effect - that is not a criticism, i'm genuinely wondering if that is partially to blame fo his apparent lack of form.

I totally get where you're coming from WB. I just have this thing about people dismissing stats because sometimes they are used incorrectly. It's like saying words can be used to lie therefore all words must be lies or pictures can be doctored therefore all pictures cannot be real. I often ask people on here to justify an opinion by backing it up with something concrete and whenever they can't they invariably use some variant of the 'stats can be used to prove anything' line when, in actuality, they can't unless you're using them incorrectly. Just put it down to a bee in my bonnet mate!

As for George I tend to agree with you, especially in relation to his marquee status. It puts an enormous expectation on a player, especially a young one, and it's not a foregone conclusion that every personality type is able to handle it. George seems like a quiet lad and maybe this has come too early for him. He wasn't the finished article anyway and perhaps needed to hone his skills a little more 'under the radar' so to speak. I wouldn't agree that he isn't trying though. On occasion it's seemed to me that perhaps he's trying too hard and it's stifling any freedom in his game.