The Saracens data is a bit misleading, they have the games in Wembley in those figures.

They are moving into Barnet Copthall stadium (Allianz Park) which is being improved/modernised in to a 10k stadium, if they were posting gates of 36k do you really think they would be happy with a 10k stadium when they currently play at Vicarage Road with a 17k capacity?

This 100%

You struggle to notice when big events like the WCC, Magic Weekend and any internationals are on.

The had a really good ad campaign last year showing the super human abilities of our star players (Super league of the unbelievable was the tag line i think) and unless you visited this site and saw a link that a few posters had made, you would have been oblivious to its existence.

All that hard work and investment into creating the advert and no 8ugger saw it because it was hidden on the web as opposed from being on regional TV.

Yups....... The RFL could not sell ipads if they ran Apples marketing

Has anyone on here been to a Union game?

I have, twice so far
Sale v Saracens at Edgeley park last march, and Sale v Saracens at city of salford a few weeks ago.
Edgeley on a friday night was almost sold out, with a great atmosphere, comparable to most rugby league games , if not better. The game was a fast, open affair, and i enjoyed it.
City of salford on a saturday afternoon was a borefest by comparison. No atmosphere whatsoever, and a game littered with penalties. The amazing bit is when the kicker takes the kick its like a cathedral, deathly silence, and its frowned upon if you talk!! I was brought up the put the kicker off.

ok...my point...ive sampled Union, so i feel able to judge.
It doesnt come close to League for entertainment value, so if there is a fault, it lies with the RFL marketting people

I held season tickets at both Harlequins RU and RL

The "events" are worlds apart-

RU- Game is dull played in wet cold conditions.

RL- Fast exciting games played in the sun

Difference- The RU fans are less knowledgeable about the game but go for the occasion with there drinking chums. A far wealthier group(av salary of fans at Quins RU is £45k) who follow it as a consequence I suspect of going through (and playing the game) in public school and uni.

RL- Attended by lower/working class. The away crowds can be poorly behaved, unsavoury with bad language (after 6 hours on the bus drinking). You would never get that at RU

There is very little cross over between the sports at the Stoop. The crowds inclusive of the home fans at the Quins/Broncos are worlds apart in the social ladder. I know of RU fans who don't recognise RL as a game!!!

The RL product ie the game on the field is a far better product. The social differences are the barriers.

Its still the game played by northerners. The games branding needs to continue to change if the games wants to move forward. Thats not very palatable I accept but its worked for union

The thing is RL has never had its moment for instance

Cricket - 2005 Ashes
RU - 2003 World Cup
Cycling - 2012 Tour de France/Olympics

Many people who couldn't give a monkeys before got gripped by it and thats what we need but playing Wales at Wrexham at the end of the season in front of 2000 fans isn't going to get us that, only an Ashes 3rd test (1 a piece)against Australia at Wembley on a warm and sunny Saturday afternoon and go on to win would do that.

Does anybody think since we went to Summer rugby International RL has declined?

For instance you can't beat International RL in the early 90's. 1990, 1992 tour of Aus and the Aus tour of GB in 1994 were awesome, since then it's took a nose dive apart from 2001,2003 and 2004 when we were GB and almost beat the Aussies

Totally spot on. That's the real crux of the matter. It is a day out.

I can see where you are coming from with your other comments but would argue against the fact that most people who watch RU are "Middle Class". This might be true of the South East, but if you go to the South West of England or Wales, RU is as much a working class sport as it is anything else. In fact it, unlike the perceived image of RL, RU is a "classless" sport, which gives is a much much broader base of "acceptance".

Internationally it is simply played by more countries (and more importantly entrenched as the de facto code of Rugby). A country like Japan for example simply does not have enough interest in Rugby to support more than one code. This holds for the vast majority of countries.

I agree absolutely.

I said in an earlier post that RL is poor now even compared to the game of 10 years ago, let alone the game of the 90s.

Have a look at our squad for the 2002 season and tell me that the one we have now is better, because it ain`t. The 2002 squad was skilful and had flair and characters in the team and with a few notable exceptions the 2012 squad didn`t. And that goes for most of the teams in Super League.

The RFL have lowered the standards of the game in their quest to make the game more competitive and have succeeded in making it for the most part boring and uncompetitive.

In the seasons before Super League our Boxing day home match would draw around 30,000. Whatever the rights and wrongs are of summer rugby, we've certainly missed a trick in abandoning the competitive fixtures around Christmas.

Saracens get about 6000 to vicarage lane. The RFU play to its strengths, giving freebies to the CoL sponsors for Twickers and Wembley events - makes a great story to sell sponsors/broadcasters.

It's called being sensible.

I agree, RL doesn't play to its - thats why the game is ripped apart and will not reach its potential. Our market is Soccer not RU fans. I would love to see Quins playing in East London for example.

The whole RL "package" needs freshening up and improving.

The salary cap needs a substantial increase - I`ll bet the wages of the staff at RL HQ have not remained at the same level for several years!

And why shouldn`t we import players from the NRL and RU if it improves the game as a spectacle - it`s that which will get people who are not going to the game interested again and it`s that which will interest new players and spectators.

And look at the SKY presentation of RL - it`s the same old, same old tired programme season after season with Wiggy and Baldy trotting out the same old platitudes. Boots n All - what an embarrassment that is. Barry and Terry - is that the best we can do? And Stevo and Studd - what`s all that about?

The whole business needs modernising - out with the old and in with the new. And sooner rather than later. Please.

Sky has brought in some superb changes with SL but the next stage needs to be more radical. With just 3 x 10 mile hotbeds ie Wigan, Leeds and Hull the game will go backwards. As much as expansion hasnt worked to date it has to going forward.

Darts has revolutionised itself, so has cricket(with more one dayers even against the traditionalists view), RU is growing both internationally and domestically (both at home and internationally). League crowds are creeping up domestically whereas internationally we seem to be standing still

Whilst the game stays northern we will never get massive sponsorship like union gets